Depth Perception Disqualification/Waiver Question

I have done a lot of searching on here and google, but I want to make sure I understand what I'm reading.

Failing the OVT depth perception test (the one with the rows of 5 circles) does not automatically disqualify one from CCT, correct? I am basing that on this excerpt from AFI 48-123



So, further testing can be done to determine the reason for the failure, and if I do have any depth perception at all. If I pass the addition depth perception tests, will I then need a DP waiver? Or is the waiver required if some of those tests are failed?

I know many others have asked very similar questions, but I am having a hard time interpreting the answer to these questions.

As always, thanks for the help!

I've stated and implied this each and every time the depth perception test pass/fail whining, bitching, confusion, or whatever comes up concerning the depth perception test.

The depth perception test administered at MEPS is on the same model machine used at any military medical treatment facility using the same test methods and pass/fail standards. A pass wearing glasses or contact lenses is a pass not requiring a waiver. Same is so of a pass after corrective eye surgery.

There is no adequate/inadequate, normal/abnormal, sufficient/insufficient depth perception standard. Depth perception is too complicated to establish such a standard. The depth perception test administered checks only a specific biocular function of depth perception that is often the first detectable sign of diseases, neural defects, and infections that are disqualifying.

If you don’t pass there is no legal or moral obligation to find out why for classification into any military occupation. There is a requirement for further diagnosis and treatment though once you actually arrive at BMT, if the cause was not discovered ( such as smoking marijuana before taking the test, or diabetes for instance) by MEPS during the MEPS medical examination and processing.

It is not MEPS obligation or responsibility to medically qualify if a disqualifying condition is found, it is the military department (Army, Navy, Marine, Air Force, Coast Guard) time and money to do so. If the military department has enough applicants meeting standards it does not need to waste time and money on trying to get somebody to meet standards.

The policy of DP test being given at BMT is most failures are resolved by getting prescribed eye glasses. The risk is there still is possibility cause could be discovery of a disqualifying infection (such as sexually transmitted disease) , disease, or neurological problem.

I've stated and implied this each and every time the depth perception test pass/fail whining, bitching, confusion, or whatever comes up concerning the depth perception test.

The depth perception test administered at MEPS is on the same model machine used at any military medical treatment facility using the same test methods and pass/fail standards. A pass wearing glasses or contact lenses is a pass not requiring a waiver. Same is so of a pass after corrective eye surgery.

There is no adequate/inadequate, normal/abnormal, sufficient/insufficient depth perception standard. Depth perception is too complicated to establish such a standard. The depth perception test administered checks only a specific binocular function of depth perception that is often the first detectable sign of diseases, neural defects, and infections that are disqualifying.

If you don’t pass there is no legal or moral obligation to find out why for classification into any military occupation. There is a requirement for further diagnosis and treatment though once you actually arrive at BMT, if the cause was not discovered ( such as smoking marijuana before taking the test, or diabetes for instance) by MEPS during the MEPS medical examination and processing.

It is not MEPS obligation or responsibility to medically qualify if a disqualifying condition is found, it is the military department (Army, Navy, Marine, Air Force, Coast Guard) time and money to do so. If the military department has enough applicants meeting standards it does not need to waste time and money on trying to get somebody to meet standards.

The policy of DP test being given at BMT is most failures are resolved by getting prescribed eye glasses. The risk is there still is possibility cause could be discovery of a disqualifying infection (such as sexually transmitted disease), disease, or neurological problem.

http://www.perret-optic.ch/optometrie/pathologie_oculaire/patho_venerienne/patho_vene1_gb.htm

I guess I should have specified that I am retraining, from an AFSC that does not require a FC III. Your post seems to be directed in a different direction that what I was asking about.

I was simply wondering if a waiver is authorized for entrance into the 1C2X1 AFSC, and if so, would the waiver process begin after the "local preliminary ocular motility and macular examination" is completed and passed as described in 48-123. I have never had to go through the waiver process with any thing else in my career, so I'm not sure exactly when the process would start, and if a depth perception waiver would even be accepted in CCT.

The entry medical standards are the same for an applicant retraining into a career field from another as it is does an individual trying to get the GTEP enlistment contract.

The difference is a person on active duty attempting to retrain is more likely to be evaluated for a waiver as the Air Force is already medical and health care obligated in ways it is not for the potential civilian recruit, but here again it depends on what is the cause for the DP failure. If the cause requires a waiver and a waiver is approved then the career field manager is likely to accept the waiver. There is no legal obligation to must accept the waiver.

Likely is used as all retraining is first come first gets and if the waiver process is lengthy so others fill all the slots before the waiver gets approved, the waiver does little good (not an absolute truism, but rather the early bird availability to meet the needs of the Air Force gets the worm simile as an example).

Gotcha. Based on what you said in your second paragraph, it sounds as if there is a possibility that the cause for failing the initial DP test may not require a waiver. I assumed that no matter the reason for failure, a waiver would be required. It sounds like I really need to get into the regs regarding waivers, and learn how the whole process works.

As always, thanks for the help.

It's not going to help you without knowing what caused the failure. The typical cause is people need glasses or contact lenses but for some reason or another never got a prescription or the prescription they have is old and needs to be matched to current vision. In this situation once the new prescription glasses or contacts are worn the DP test is passed and "NO" waiver is needed.

If the problem is something else then you need to know what that something else cause is. Some disqualifying fail the DP test conditions are waiverable and others are not.

Too many people get themselves wrapped around an axle out of what if I fail the DP test worry they didn't need to worry about to begin with.

Thanks for the reply. Thats exactly what I was wondering.

I did fail the DP test on Friday, although I passed it years ago at MEPS when I joined. I have been issued glasses twice since I have been in, but never bothered to wear them, as my vision is fine for every day stuff. They ordered some glasses for me on Friday, so I will be trying again as soon as I get used to them. Luckily, the optometry guy is a medical elimination from TACP, so he is more willing to work with me than others may be.

Thanks again, Yukon.

Just wanted to make an update for others that may have the same problem. I was initially told by the Captain at Optometry that I could probably never pass the OVT test. The two halves of the arrow on the side of the screen were not visible together for me. I could see one of the other, with each eye closed. They ordered glasses for me, and I retook the test yesterday. I could see the arrow as one piece, and was able to pass the test. I am sure the glasses helped, but all the little tips I read on the internet helped a lot too. Looking "through" the image, looking between the circles, and unfocusing all helped. They would just pop out after I relaxed my vision and looked at nothing in particular. Also, having the lights off in the room made a huge difference. I still had a tough time with it, and it took me about 10 minutes to get through section D. My eyes were definitely strained afterwards. So anyway, for someone else in a similar position, there may be hope!

Hopefully you realize you are describing the “Fusion” eye examination test and not the depth perception eye examination test. BTW the machine is used to do a series of 8-9 tests in a specific sequence; only one test of the sequence is the DP test.

The problem with corrective lenses being used to pass the fusion test is typically this results in being required to wear glasses at all times in performing duties. There is also comes into question how much correction is needed.

Passing the fusion test is required to proceed to the depth perception test.

Bottom-line is with disclosure of: " having the lights off in the room made a huge difference" and “I still had a tough time with it, and it took me about 10 minutes to get through section D”, you are not out of the woods yet.

The arrow thing was on the side of the same screen that had the circles for the depth perception test. I didn't realize it was actually a testable thing by itself. They never mentioned it. This screen (with the arrow and A through F DP Test sections) was the only screen I used. I saw there was a knob that changed the screens, but they never used any of the other ones with me. Sounds like optometry here is administering the required tests for a FCIII wrong. I have my appt with Flight Medicine Friday, so I will probably learn more there.

Unlikely. Many lack sufficient familiarity with the examination to have awareness of the tests being administered to understand what is being looked for and more importantly why.

The Air Force in selecting applicant for a job or to perform duties of a job has the obligation to ensure the individual has the functioning ability (mechanical, physical, and biochemical functions of good and/or normal health) to do tasks safely.

The aircrew flyer class medical examination vision standards exist as result of visual demand of performing the crew member tasks of flying an aircraft.

Pararescue, CCT and similar jobs (duties of AFSC) also have tasks performance placing significant different visual demand concerns of operational environment through a continuum of brightest day and darkest night. Less than normal vision does increase confusion when performing visual tasks. Less than normal vision can influence having abnormal body posture and balance problems among other problems.

For example a person can have perfect 20/20 acuity, but the person's ability to see objects against low contrasting backgrounds is impaired. Some common Contrast Sensitivity degradation examples are night blindness and extreme light sensitivity. The point being is the MEPS and subsequent Class III aircrew exam is looking at many more aspects of normal vision than the typical civilian eye exam.

The second point being made is the vision standards are of such amount of what is qualifying and what is disqualifying that it is impossible to rely on what is posted here as what actually caused the disqualification. The pointing out the test you were referring to was testing something else other than depth perception was illustrating the lack of reliability of what somebody thinks the test tests and what it actually tests exists.

In the post previous to this you said that passing the fusion test is required to proceed to the depth perception test. They never asked about the fusion test, and I never mentioned it, yet I did the depth perception test. Therefore it seems that you are contradicting yourself here by saying that I am unaware, and that it is unlikely they are doing something wrong. I am not trying to be rude, but I am thoroughly confused.

I'm not contradicting myself. The Optec 2300 Vision Tester (OVT) combines the testing of several visual functions into one piece of equipment.

The following is from the Air Force Guidance that applies to all medical personnel who perform portions of physical examinations or preventive health assessments. It outlines step-by-step procedures for proper completion of tests and additional studies usually performed on physical examinations given by the Air Force.


The standard distant and near tests are given in the following order:


5.6.1. Test 1 - Far Vertical Phoria.
5.6.2. Test 2 - Far Lateral Phoria.
5.6.3. Test 3 or 4 or both - Distant Visual Acuity.
5.6.4. Test 5 - Fusion and Depth Perception.
5.6.5. Test 8 or 9 or both - Near Visual Acuity.

5.7.4.2.3. If the examinee passes the test for fusion, continue with the test for depth perception.


ALSO:

1.2. Medical Ethics:


... However, remember that when a test is not performed as required, or its’ result is not recorded accurately, you may be allowing an unqualified person to pass. This adversely affects mission effectiveness, operational safety, and the member’s well-being.
...

1.4. Evaluating Abnormal Findings. Do not discuss abnormal findings on any test with the examinee. Note these findings and show them to the examining health care provider at the end of the test. The findings will be evaluated according to AFI 48-123, and additional studies performed as determined by the examining provider.

So I'm a little confused after reading several posts here and asking my recruiter.

I failed depth perception at MEPS. Is this going to be an issue for combat control?

I thought that had been changed. MEPS still had combat control and PJ as eligible job options when I got to the end.

This from the AFSOC Lead Recruiter:

DP has been removed as a MEPS requirement, but the candidates still need to pass it while in BMT when they take their Class III physical. We're just not relying on the MEPS exam for DP.

This was as of Jun 11...I am seeing if it's changed, but, in either case, you must still pass the depth perception examination.

How can the Air Force guarantee someone a job as a CCT after they've passed their physical, the PAST, and the ASVAB, only to revoke that guarantee and tell them they're not physically qualified once they actually ship to training? That would expose the service to a legal liability I would think, but what do I know...

Either way, thanks for looking into it. My recruiter told me it's not required and hadn't heard of the BMT issue. Little confused on the answer to this and don't want to wait until after I ship to find out.

There is no "guarantee" for a CCT job...the GTEP contract is simply a guarantee to try for a CCT job. The PAST, ASVAB, intial MEPS exam, etc. are all steps required to try...failure to meet the requirements of an AFSC means the individual is not allowed to continue in training, or the AFSC is removed (in the case of a current CCT).

There is nothing unethical about it...it is in the contract and an individal must sign paperwork indicating he understands that, should he become unqualified, he is no longer eligible for the AFSC.

I understand where you're coming from regarding DP, and I am still awaiting word confirming it is still in effect, but as it stands now, no matter where a deficiency is caught, it still may disqualify an individual from an AFSC.

Interesting, okay. I guess I have a lot of things to clear up. I was under the impression (read: I was told explicitly) that the Air Force guaranteed slots in PJ/SOWT/CCT once you passed your PAST and met qualifications.

Thanks. It's awesome you're willing to put this effort forth for strangers on the internet.

AF Surgeon General guidance is on the way to me which I will post (as applicable) when I get it. Talked to the CCT FAM at AETC and he still said bottom line is DP is a CCT AFSC requirement.

Guaranteed Training Enlistment Program (GTEP)—The preenlistment selection of a specific AFSC in which applicants will receive technical training (in residence) with follow-on assignment in that specialty. There is no guarantee implied by this agreement a career job reservation exists to drive a report to BMT date as it is not a you are Guaranteed to enlist agreement only that if you do you will enter into the training and will be given asignment performing duties AFSC once the required AFSC awarding training is successfully completed.

No person enlisting in any of the military services (Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines, Coast Guard) will initially be guaranteed training without processing through MEPS to determine what military occupations the person qualifies for. For some military occupations such as Pararescue, Combat Control and etc having scrutiny of meeting more stringent qualification requirements, the GTEP become you will be entered into the qualification training, pending result of medical exam (FC-III, Marine Diver, etc), but there is no follow-on assignment if the required training for award of AFSC is not successfully completed.

If a medical disqualification is discovered that isn’t temporary and cannot be waived after reporting to BMT or during the required training the will receive training and follow-on assignment in that specialty agreement becomes void. The choice of separating or reclassifying into another AFSC will depend on being medically qualified for the chosen AFSC. As conditions are beyond the persons control there is no negative consequences imposed as if say you failed to progress academically.

Even being in the Delayed Entry Program brings no guarantee of enlisting with the GTEP if there is no job reservation to match you to. In this situation you either do not enlist into active duty and report to BMT (a DEP Discharge is given) or you do enlist for another job that you decide to accept and report to BMT to get trained to do that job.

So.... is the FC3 performed at MEPS or at BMT?

TE is seeking the answer, when he gets the answer he will post it. The by the book Army Regulation governing MEPS medical examinations is MEPS is not obligated do initial Flying Class III examinations for the Air Force. Some MEPS do others don't and I'm uncertain what establishes adversely affecting accomplishing the primary mission.

MEPS is obligated to comply with AFI 48-123, Chapter 4 APPOINTMENT, ENLISTMENT, AND INDUCTION. Flying and Special Operations medical standards is Chapter 6 of AFI 48-123.

The Depth Perception test is part of the required accession medical examination MEPS is required to do when clasification into an occupation requires normal depth perception, it is not driven by the specific need give the Class III flyer medical examination.

Any additional information available on this?

Man...

Okay I just got off the phone with a recruiter in San Antonio who has said the same thing my local recruiter said: depth perception has been removed as a requirement for combat control.

When I mentioned the memos in here about BMT, he said he hadn't heard that and would get back to me.

The medical requirement for initial classification into CTT is: IAW AFI 48-123, Medical Examinations and Standards.

Also as the current CCT Classification job description contains: "Includes terminal control (air traffic control [ATC]) and targeting, and control of air strikes (including close air support [CAS]) and use of visual and electronic aids to control airheads and enable precision navigation.

The following from AFI 48-123 applies:

6.1.3.1.4.1.
...Note: All IFCIII physicals are required to have color vision, depth perception, height, hearing, distant and near visual acuity testing results recorded even if a specific AFSC does not require the standard to qualify for a particular career field. Results must be recorded and information put into PEPP and AIMWTS.

----
6.4.15. All FCIII depth perception deficiencies, color vision deficiencies, or other conditions that restrict the individual’s ability to perform scanning duties or otherwise restrict ability to perform FCIII duties. Note: Enlisted flying criteria is the decision of the AFSC CFM at AF/A3.

----
6.44.11.2.2. All will be tested. All IFCIII physicals are required to have depth perception results recorded even if a specific AFSC does not require the standard to qualify for a particular career field. Results must be recorded and information put into PEPP and AIMWTS (e.g. VTA-DP fails D, AFSC does not require depth perception).

----
6.46.7. Depth Perception. No standard except for career fields below:

6.46.7.1. Tactical Air Control Party (1C4X1), Air Liaison Officer (13LX). Failure of either the Vision Test Apparatus (VTA-DP), or its newer replacement, the OVT is considered disqualifying if the failure occurs with best corrected visual acuity regardless of level of uncorrected visual acuity.

----
6.48.4. Marine Diving Duty (Pararescue and Combat Control Duty). The medical standards are those for Flying Class III plus those here and those listed in 6.48.3 Failure to meet standards is cause to reject an examinee for initial Marine Diving duty and for continued duty unless a waiver is granted. Acute medical problems, injuries, or their appropriate therapy may be cause for withholding certification for initial training or temporarily restricting from duty until the problem is resolved.

6.48.4.1. The following conditions are disqualifying:
...
6.48.4.2. Defective Depth Perception.


The terminal control duties in the CCT classification description has some importance as this requirement connects directly to "Personnel Authorized to Perform JTAC Duties" are not authorized to perform JTAC duties when the individiual (person) lacks lack normal color vision or depth perception IAW AFI 48-123, Medical Examinations and Standards. Reference AFI 13-112, VOLUME 1, Table 1.

Previously in this post thread TE posted:

"This from the AFSOC Lead Recruiter:

DP has been removed as a MEPS requirement, but the candidates still need to pass it while in BMT when they take their Class III physical. We're just not relying on the MEPS exam for DP.

This was as of Jun 11...I am seeing if it's changed, but, in either case, you must still pass the depth perception examination."

What TE posted is what your recruiter is telling you. Your questions extended into when and where during the enlistment process is the initial Class III Physical accomplished (is the FC3 performed at MEPS or at BMT). I clearly stated TE is looking into getting further clarification into both of these questions. Rather than providing clarification you are providing useless confusion not only here, but are probably confusing the Air Force Recruiting Service too.

I'm not intending to introduce confusion. I read (word for word) what TE wrote, to my recruiter, and his response was that was just out of date, and the BMT requirements are the same as MEPS. I'm definitely confused, but I hope this isn't becoming contagious.

I'm not trying to be a pain in the *****. I'm getting completely contradictory information from two sources I consider reliable and both seem to be 100% confident that they're right, and I'm stuck in the middle.

This is true as MEPS exam is only there to make sure somebody is not 4F and to document any duty limiting medical conditions preventing the individual from being infantry (an exageration, but the point being boots on the ground to fight was the need). The system is actually set up for the military department to classify recuits into jobs during BMT, not before reporting to BMT.

4F is a no longer in-use term left over from WWII. 4-F meant the draft registrant not acceptable for military service. To be eligible for Class 4-F, a registrant must have been found not qualified for service in the Armed Forces by a Military Entrance Processing Station (MEPS) under the established physical, mental, or moral standards.

Essentially a 4 in any of the PULHES areas is 4F. 111111 is excellent or rather average/common good in physical, mental and emotional health. Less than a 1 in any area is medical condition is present causing a duty performance limitation.

Confusion may not be contagious but it can be self-destructive as demonstrated by Captain James T. Kirk in episode #32, production #37 where he deals with an indestructible planet-destroying space probe Nomad by convincing Nomad it is imperfect. Do we need to get you to see a counselor for your confusion before you stress yourself to the point of self-destruct?

Heh, well played. Excellent reference.

But no, the voices have informed me I do not need counseling.

I have not received the information on depth perception yet due to completing paramedic refresher...It is being compiled now by the CCT FAM. As for reliable sources, the recruiters get their information through channels from the guy I get it from...theoretically it should be the same but often isn't...I have mentioned this to various folks directly responsible for standards and they have stated It is difficult to ensure that all of AF Recruiting Command gets it. Having said that I will confirm the information.

Thanks a million.

So I'm assuming that CCT (in addition to SOWT) require a person to pass the DP test for the FCIII physical?