TE- I have done a search of "Crosstraining" and am looking to verify my facts.

I have originally planned on entering in the class of 03-003, coming straight out of BMT. However as the time for me to leave for BMT comes closer, the physical aspect of Indoc is growing greater in my mind. While I understand that one of the most challenging part's of Indoc is mental, the drive to keep going, not to quit. There is no denying that it puts a tremendous amount of strain on your body, and you HAVE to be physically in top shape when you go in.

Im currently running 5 miles mon-wed-fri, and lifting same days. However my swim just isn't up to par, honestly i make a better rock than a swimmer. And I have just gotten access to a pool this past week. That leaves me with a mere 2.5 months to train at 5 days a week. But I'm determined to succeed no matter what the costs, even if it means (gulp) washing out, and re-training.

From what i have read when searching through forums there is a minum crosstraining time of 36 months for 6 year enlistee's. From what I'm assuming (never good to assume) that means that if I were to enter as a Non-PJ on my contract, that it would be a full 36 months before i could crosstrain.

If i were to enter as a PJ, and wash out of Indoc, does the 36 month rule still apply for re-training into Indoc?

Thanks for the answers, im just trying to decide my best course of action. Go in as a non-PJ get more physically fit, and crosstrain, or try for PJ straight outta BMT. Hope you guys have a good rest of the week.

AnotherWannabe- Go PJ straight out of basic. See what you can do - You're scaring yourself too much into washing. Look at it this way, if you do washout, then you'll at least have a taste of how indoc is and you can better prepare yourself... Yes, if you're a 6 year enlistee, either way you have to wait 36months from the date you enter active duty. (24 for 4yr enlistee). Don't set yourself up for failure, just do it.

Another Wannabe,

Just do it! Remember that everything starts slow (you walk before you run in the military). Passing of the PAST is the point at which the training starts. No matter how good/bad shape you are in, if you pass the PAST you will be ready to give it a shot. Remember many people who end up at the INDOC never even knew about the career field until they got to basic, and they go take the PAST and go right in. I would look at it like if you start now you are 2.5 months ahead of some people who are doing nothing right now, and guys like that will end up in your class. If you are interested give it your best shot and use these next 75 days to get yourself ready. There are guys who start the INDOC without even being able to swim with their face in the water. You will regret it if you dont give it a shot. That 36 months can feel like a jail sentence. Good Luck!

Thanks for the support guys...

Honestly my biggest fear comes not from failure (cause i dont intend to <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) but rather from the horror stories i hear of people washing out, and being forced into terrible afsc's. There by MAKING the 36 months into certainly feeling like a prison.

On the up side i would like to thank TE for this wonderful site. Im not sure whether or not you know this, but this site is pretty much the sole source of information i have come across. When I set my heart on being a PJ (years ago, but foolishly I wasn't preparing) this site was like a beacon. When i first entered a recruiting station they, and inquired about being a PJ. They handed me 22 pages of papers. ALL of them being printouts from your site. And whenever i ask a question of a recruiter its "I'm not sure about that."
And if they give me a answer to which i have learned differently from this site, they always tell me to go with what i read here. Heck i appreciate it so much, that sometimes i sit here, just clicking the banner adds thru your page.

And i would also like to say thanks for all the support and sense of like a brotherhood i have read from your guy's post's. You guys gave me motivation when i had none. When i didn't feel like going to gym, i thought of you guys, and i got my sorry *** up and went. Thanks to you guys, im finally in the best shape of my life (and it can only get better.)

AMEN to that!

Grrr... my only problem is how BMT will probably get you out of shape for indoc. so why bother really pushing yourself to final evaluation standards before you leave, when realistically, you'll get stuck with a dick head TI who won't let you be special and will instead make you train like the rest of your flight.

I'm sorry, but I'm just in this mental zone right now with my training, where I see keeping above normal PAST test fitness levels as good enough to go into BMT.

At least if you're a crosstrainee, it seems like you can come into indoc in tip top shape, instead of losing it all pretty much in BMT, I mean 6-7 weeks is a lot of time to just be running 2 miles every other day, and hardly being smoked. I don't know about you guys, but I lose my fitness level fast if I'm not pushing myself at least every other day.
I guess we all lose our motivation to show "excellence in everything we do" once in awhile <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Unless someone can promise me that people with the PJ or CCT career can get a little special treatment in BMT to be smoked everyday, I don't know what to say other than I hope that indoc. expects everyone to be at PAST test fitness levels when they arrive, and work up from there. heck, if that's the case, then a "never quit" attitude should be all you need instead of coming in and being able to meet the graduation requirements on the first day.

edit: my 100th post! woohoo!

Will you loose shape at BMT? Absolutely. But if you are in shape for the final standards you will also loose shape (running and swimming (not cals) at the beggining of INDOC. However, if you are running 40+ miles a week before BMT and then go to INDOC when you pick up the pace again you will not only get to where you were faster you will recover faster. The most important reason (to me) to work on the later standards is so you know you can do it. SOme people have never ran more than one mile. If you are training and run 6 in sub 45:00 then later when life sucks at INDOC you can tell yourself you have done it before and you can do it again. It is so psychological it isnt even funny. Further, the more events yo uare doing close to the times in training let you know that you can do it.

The INDOC starts slow look at everything published. The reason the PAST standards are what they are is so they know you have the minimum it takes to start the program. And like I said the INDOC is slow enough at the beggining that you would get out of your running and swimming shape if you are working on a hardcore training program now. Beofre the web people sidt know $hit about the OL-H and people right out of basic made it through. You are right the never quit attitude is what you need, and what you know now and how you are training now is simply a bonus to that attitude.

This idiotic idea of "losing fitness" at Indoc is beginning to sound a lot like "my pussy hurts!"

Every other PJ who went straight from BMT into Indoc (which is most of us) and made it through did so with the same opportunity to "lose fitness".

Sounds like a ready made excuse to fail. In my humble opinion.

You're not clear if you're talking to Norm or myself, but I'm not making an excuse at all to quit, I'm just saying that I'm tired of hearing these guys on the forums saying they're at graduation eval levels or busting their balls night and day to reach them, and that's nice and all guys, but keep in mind when you're at BMT, you aren't going to have the chance to keep that intense of training schedule, and it's kinda pointless to work so hard other than the mental fact that you knew you once were there and could pull the weight - 3 months ago (which doesn't help too much now).

heck yeah it would be nice to go into indoc being able to do graduation standards like so many washouts and graduates recommend, but it's impossible to be that way if you're coming strait from BMT. We just need to set realistic goals for gonnabes, because I'd rather have the heart in the right place, than my ability to meet the graduation standards the first week

Antons, he's talking to everybody! Usually the only people that complain about muscle loss and getting out of shape at BMT are the ones that can't pass the PAST anyways because they were pencil whipped into GTEP PJ (Just from what I saw). Excellence in all we do- you should always want to be in the best physical shape that you can. Quit making excuses not to work hard, grab hold of your balls and f@#$ing go!! 3 months? Last I knew, BMT was only 6weeks. No worries though, when you get to indoc, tell Cadre you're out of shape. They'll help you out.

AAneeded: Excellence in all we do- I am in great shape in my mind, but the cadre will make it clear that I'm not. I have a feeling when my class gets to indoc, the cadre will look at us all, and know we're all out of shape and help us out <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

umm... I said 3 months cuz there is 0 week, and a few weeks after gradutation. so carry the 2 and subtract the 5, so more like 2 months then, eh, oh well, my mistake

Wannabe, you got enough motivational replies already. Hopefully I can help you on your swimming problem. When I first started swimming I was horrible, I was like a gorilla beating the **** out of the water and I couldn't finish 5 laps. The key is to find help on your technique. Ask somebody who knows, check out a book at the library, there's even links here to swimming books on Amazon.com. Once you learn to do it right, it's just another exercise. It turned out being my favorite. 2.5 months is plenty of time.
Do all the pull-ups and flutter kicks you can at basic and that should keep your swimming shape up. Depending on your squadron you'll get the oppurtunity to bust your *** . I had the 320th and we got to run at our own pace (bust it!) and three shots at the Pullup bar every workout (max it!)
You'll be fine, you just gotta want it bad enough. Keep your goal always in sight and know that nothing can stop you from achieving it.

LOL thanks aa, is that all i need to do? Tell the cadre im outta shape huh.... good idea <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Thanks for all the advice guys, i too think that its just a mental phase that im going through, the realization has hit home about what im doing, and that its coming up fast. Before the date was months away, now its getting closer....

Take care guys, im off to go swimming!

lol rosco you musta been typing when i was, heh i think calling me a gorilla in the water would be to graceful

I guess it isnt obvious to some people that shape is a relative term. If you are used to running 40 miles a week or 130 like my friend you WILL get out of shape even at the beggining of teh INDOC. People train different for different things. My post was specific in noting that if you are used to running long Workouts you will loose shape even at the INDOC. The key is when the tempo picks up you will be able to get back to where you were faster.

Antons is right that yo urun on your own, the biggest problem is the time. When I was at BMT we started out running 15-20 minutes, so that is only 10 out 10 back at your own pace. Good for working on speed, but it wont help you if you are running longer Workouts. I ran 13 this Saturday and if it was my goal to stay in the long distance shape for half marathons or even marathons it would be hard.

I think it is key that people understand some of the advice given on this forum isnt always specific to the OL-H standards. It is true that you will get out of shape during BMT or during the beggining of the OL-H. What do I mean by that? If you are used to running 130 miles a week and yo ugo to BMT followed by the OL-H (lets just say 16 weeks) you will not be able to be at the same point as you were beofre you went. Not because the training doesnt kick your *** and isnt hard, it's because it's a different routine for a different purpose.

Marty I totally understand your point but my advice was non-OL-H specific it was more the fact that if you have a hardcore workout program whether it's for the OL-H or because you are a professional runner you will loose some of that when your schedule is reduced. I think your point was mine exactally, many people come straight from basic and make it, so ANother Wannabe should give his best and not quit and be fine.

Here is an example of my buddy's workout, and a clear example of somebody who would loose his running shape even at the OL-H.

Monday: a.m. 12 Miles Trails

Tuesday: a.m. 12 Miles Trails
Tuesday: p.m. 7 miles roads, 5k race, 2mile cooldown

Wednesday: a.m. 12 Miles Trails (easy)

Thursday: a.m. 12 Miles Roads
Thursday: p.m. 12 Miles Trails

Friday: a.m. 12 Miles Trails/Road
Friday: p.m. 15 Miles (800's interval followed by 10k Tempo (race pace))

Saturday: 12-18 Miles (easy)

Sunday: 3-5 Hours Typically at least 30 miles and once a month 45+

This is why out of shape is not idiotic and is a real thing. It is relative to the person and what their goals are. My buddy who does the above workout may have 2 goals; 1. To be CCT, and 2. To continue to get paid to run.

Norm-My post wasn't addressing yours specifically (or pacifically if your a Congresswoman from CA) but rather this whole theme that people have come up with of BMT somehow hindering their efforts at Indoc, which is a total non-issue.

If it was then only cross-trainee's would make it and I think that cross-trainee's are actually much less likely to pass Indoc than the BMT guys. I bet the ratio of BMT/Cross-trainee's is weighted very heavily in favor of going to Indoc straight from BMT.

I know in my class none of the dozen or so cross-trainee's made it.

Marty,

I'm sorry if that last post seemed like I was being a dic*. Sometimes when I write on here I leave out things that are normally understood in a phone conversation. I respect you as a person who has made it and served as an operator and I even agree with you 100% on this topic, I just wasnt clear in what I was trying to say.

Bottom line is there are no excuses. If you want the job go for it, if you are unsure go drive some buses for 3 years and then see how bad you want the job. This forum offers a unique oportunity for trainees to get a lot of information that was never available before. The funny thing is there could be 1,000,000 posts and only two absolutes; 1. Know what you want, 2. Dont quit.

Marty: Can you please explain why none of the crosstrainees in your class made it or why it is better to come into indoc out of BMT instead???

...it seems like both groups have equal shots to get to graduation, so how is the mental and physical aspects different?

I have been lifting for years and years, and I have observed that I can stop for two months, and when I start up again, I have lost only around 15 pounds of my max dumbell bench press. It comes back quickly as well. That was not so when I was a new lifter. Now, from a scientific standpoint, you lose aerobic fitness at roughly 3 times the rate at which you loose muscular fitness, so two months will make a HUGE difference if you do nothing. However, at BMT you are not doing nothing. If you had achived a high level of aerobic fitness prior to BMT and maintained it for any significent length of time (i.e., more than a couple months, which tells your body to always stay at that level), you would definately loose a bit of fitness, but would gain it back very swiftly once at indoc. Even if you had not maintained a high level of fitness for a significent amount of time, you essentially shovelled all the snow off the path to fitness before you left, and will only need to take care of the overnight flurries once you get to indoc., you follow me? What I am saying is:

1) You will lose some wind at BMT, but not a ton.
2) What you lose you can gain back quickly if you have been in indoc shape for an extended period of time before going.
3) If you go in indoc shape, but having not been at that level for more than a few weeks, you still have an advantage because your body will recognize the stimulus of indoc Workouts once you get there and respond quickly.
4) The amount of fitness you lose depends on YOU. Make it happen while at BMT!
5) Work out during your graduation leave.

The class that i went through with in '99 only had 1 BMT graduate, 2 officers, and 6 x-trainees. I dont have any hard specifics on numbers, but the crosstrainees seem to do pretty good nowadays.

Norm-I didn't think you were being a dick at all-so no worries there!

Antons-Well finally a question where I can put that psych degree to work! But in light of F27's post this analysis may not stand. I think it's harder as a crosstrainee because you have some idea of how the AF works. Now I have no AF experience outside of my time as a PJ but the regular AF (as in the non-PJ AF) seemed to be pretty much like a 9-5 job with really good benefits (although the pay is pretty low). So imagine yourself coming into (as a x-trainee) Indoc and now all of sudden you have a bunch of sadistic bastards ordering you to do things that quite obviously are not entirely legal-let alone helpful. So you always have in the back of your mind that "hey, my old job was pretty sweet, I never had to do 1000 push-ups in a row, nor did they make me eat moldy food and do sommersaults till I puked, I think I like it better in the real AF!" Remember that not too long ago this site didn't exist and what happened at Indoc (or the OL-J in my case) was totally unknown to those entering it. So I think that x-trainees had a fairly easy out, Indoc is hard, their old job was easy.
Of all the x-trainees that came through during my two classes (I was set back due to a broken finger) only 1 made it-a former Marine, he seemed to enjoy it actually.

I always dreaded the idea of having to be an SP (a popular AFSC for OL-J dropouts) and having to salute cars as they drove through the gate. X-trainees know how simple and easy AF life is and so they may have that little voice saying "it's not worth it."

So the bottom line is that it's MORE than worth it and you simply cannot use BMT as some lame excuse for you not graduating from Indoc!

That seems very accurate, particularly since you witnessed it firsthand. But there must also be the few personalities who lay it all on the line and can't go back. Either they hated that easy life, or burned that bridge just trying to get to Indoc (like the Marine you mentioned).

Marty- you got the 9-5 thing right, well actualy it more like 0400-1500, but that's the reason I'm puting in a cross train packet.
There are some guys out there that may just want to crostrain to "give it a shot", I'm doing it to make it, I'd rather die trying than return to being a "chairborn ranger"(it suits some, not me).