abrummy,

Didn't see your question earlier...yes, from the Gates of Fire...that book should be required reading for everyone in the military and especially anyone in a leadership position.

Too bad the Spartans were a bunch of pole smokers...

"Great men always do great things, but the ones history remembers are the ones who strive for the unobtainable and succeed."- Unknown

As far as I can tell, I don't think anyone has said this, so it might be my own original quote??? I did a search to see if someone has said it, and no results, but it's probably more likely that I just don't remember who said it and I am just claiming it as my own, I hope I didn't just take someone else's credit. Either way, I am saying it's unknown. If I am wrong someone correct me please.

"I will prepare and someday my chance will come."

Abraham Lincoln

I couldn't agree more TE, and I would read it a 3rd time had I not lent it out. Guard MC is also correct, but they only smoked pole after kicking lots of as$...and sometimes before

So, if we agree that some of the most hard-core warriors to ever carry a spear were pole smokers...what does that say about todays military?

Discuss...

I think that the Spartans were a lot more hard core than we, the present day US Military, will ever be. When you have a society totally dedicated to fighting and winning wars, you are going to turn out warriors a lot tougher than us. We are a lot more like the Athenians (unabashed pole smokers) who had a brief age of mandatory service and a few professional warriors. The soldiers were respected more or less as the tides of war moved, more respect when Athens was in trouble and needed them and less respect during peace where the taxpayers saw the soldiers as a tax burden. (Sound familiar?) But back to the Spartans...I respect that they were dedicated to fighting more than any culture I can name. Marriage partners determined by a council of elders based on the likelyhood of producing healthy and aggressive offspring to carry on the race. Men in service until age 65 (life expectancy being somewhat less than 60 years at that time), the role of women to bear and raise healthy children and to indoctrinate them into the ways of Sparta. Who else but a Spartan mom would tell her kid to "Come back with your shield or upon it." Meaning, "I'd rather have your buddies carry your dead body back home on your shield then have you drop your shield to run from the enemy and save your own life." Parents who deemed a child too weak left the child out on the hillside for the animals and the elements to take. Boys entered basic training at the age of 6, living in open bay barracks and given so little food that they had to steal to live. If cought stealing, they were beaten severely; not for stealing-they were expected to steal because soldiers of the time had to live off the land- but for getting cought. Scavenging parties who attracted too much notice often got into side scrapes with the locals, wasting valuable time and energy better used on the enemy. So, I agree the Spartans were hard core warriors, the most warrior like culture ever. I just think it amusing that homosexuality was such a common trait in Sparta, as in all Greek nations at this time. Guess you could smoke pole and smoke the enemy back then. Sure worked for the Greeks.

While the "Spartans" for example may have been more "hardcore" in somes opinion, I disagree. I think that because of the time they lived in they were forced to fight that way; barbaric I mean. I think if you took a Spartan and asked him to jump out of a C-130 he'd sh*t himself when he got up there.
While I may not know what it is to charge someone with a sword, I wouldn't hesitate pulling the trigger if it meant my life.
Now, on to the pole smoking... All I have to say is, no matter how awesome fighters they were, they were eventually overtaken, OR fell off the face of this earth. Our military is going strong, and technicaly no pole smokers are allowed in! We are the most pawerful antion on this earth. Just my .02

Well, Bombero...having jumped out of a plane over 2,000 times, I'd have to say I'd sh*t myself charging someone with a sword.

Never forget...we, the greatest military on earth, will eventually fall from the earth.

The question separated from the way things are- I think why someone fights is what really determines how good of a warrior he is- and obviously training, equipment, and phyiscal capabilites/fitness are ,inarguably, strong considerations when talking about how good a warrior is.

But in the cases where how far you push yourself to train and get conditioned that's when the why comes into play. When you live in culture/society whose sole purpose is war- as was in the case of spartans- you have a hell of a lot to be up against if you're that country's enemy. I agree with TE on this one, at some point our great country will eventually fall- just not while we have a military that has members that are aware of that which they have signed-up for, and still choose to do so. It's always easy to get someone to do something when it's easy, but it's harder when they don't like it. But when you got that guy who keeps on without griping, that's when you know you got a warrior. They don't gripe because they know it has to be done- it has to be dont because they will not fail because they believe too much is on the line. That's what I believe.

As far as the hardcore question is concerned, I will absolutely say hands down that yes, spartans were freaking hardcore.

However, I don't think that war is the only thing in live- it's something to protect the things in life that matter the most. It is something that will never go away, and it is a neccessary thing to take care of the things that we value.

Now, with the way it is in America right now, the real problem - and there are actually many more than just this one, but it is one of the larger issues- with the military (and I really mean our country- more specifically politics) is that at some point policies/rules/laws were put into place to protect people from being offended. Guns became bad because of school shootings- instead of the kids who did the shootings and the parents who were terrible parnets (lack of responsibilty). There have always been those who were irresponsible and stupid, but more people have started to be irresponsible and focusing on their rights instead of responsibility- that's where the real problems exists and as long as we have people out there who believe in "peace not war" and are "pro-choice" and question authority simply because they don't want to do something instead of realizing that rules are usually in place to protect. And it's just going to get worse.

When my father was in the Air Force I remember him telling me about "wall-to-wall talks", and when he wasn't going low enough on push-ups a TI shoving his face into the pavement with his boot. Frankly- yeah a bit much, but the message was recieved- war is not easy. Now, I hear, it might become policy (if it isn't already) to not have TIs/DIs/ Drill Sergeants chew a recruit out when he screws-up because he might hurt his feelings and that would make him want to quit. With the new way Americans are thinking, our society is raising a bunch of pu%%ies- that simply. That is why eventually America will fall too.

And yes- I'd ***** myself if I had to charge someone with a sword too. That's why I like guns...

CROwannabe et.al.,

My argument is not with the Spartans, nor the present day military...my argument is with the American people...most of whom are to weak to accept the realities of the long war.

Most Americans believe that this is a war like any other war...they are wrong...and I salute Don Rumsfeld for realizing this fact (for the military at least). Yes, we made mistakes in Iraq...but we'll learn from that...there-in lies the key...throughout history we have learned...unfortunately, we're learning in real-time now. We see good men and women dying day after day on TV...but, the military is not stupid. Everytime someone dies, we learn...everytime the radical Muslims make a change, we change too...there-in lies the nature of this war...it sucks...and many, many more lives will be lost before it is over...not in Iraq...but other places...with the names of men we don't even know right now.

Sad part is...the media will do nothing but report the deaths...years from now, no matter what party is power, no matter what administration pushes their policy...men and women will die...for thier country...but, most won't realize that...they may get a mention on TV or an "in memoriam" from "This Week"...but many Americans will not even understand or acknowledge their sacrafice...

I firmly believe that a draft should be initiated within this country. Not for the political reasons...but for the right reasons...men and women of this country should be expected to serve it...if they refuse, they should be forced to leave.

Harsh, maybe...realistic...of course...America must realize the stakes regarding this long war...and suck it up...otherwise, I truty believe we are lost.

Fianlly a spirited discussion. It's been a while.
I have to say that CROwannabe raises some good points but I disagree that the US will stand as long as it has military members who are willing to defend it. The military can not prevent the fall of a country if the policy makers hamper it. Two good examples of how a dedicatedmilitary can't win a war if hampered by policy makers are Nazi Germany in WWII and the US in Vietnam. A very disciplined and dedicated (sometimes very innovative but mostly very lock stepped) German military did an outstanding job of fighting on most fronts but still lost the war. Their policy makers never fully mobiliized the national economy, their industry and the political overseers never fully understood the principles of mass production (thus the supremely capable but very hard to produce and unreliable Tiger Tank for example), their diplomats allowed themselves to be outmanuevered time and again when building alliances, and finally Hitler and his crew simply took on way too many enemies on way too many fronts. Nothing the military could do would overcome the obstacles of too few men and machines against too many enemies.
Vietnam can be seen a lot of ways but bottom line, the military may or may not have been able to coerce N. Vietnam into leaving S. Vietnam alone but was never allowed by policy makers to apply force as the military felt needed.
I agree with TE that the military will continue to learn and adapt to the fight and can sustain the long war. The question is whether the policy makers are prepared to do so. I rather doubt that they are prepared for as long of a war as the Muslim Extremists we are facing. We are fighting them in Iraq now but we were fighting them in Kosovo before that. In other Balkan States before that. Before we, the US, were fighting Muslim extremists, other countries were doing so back since Mohamed came down from the mountain. The extremists see it as a religious war, a war that has gone on for over 600 years. They see Iraq in the greater context as just yet another conflict between Muslims and Christians. Their religion tells them that it is their duty to expell Christians from any Muslim land and that all governments in Muslim lands must be governed by Muslim laws (ultimately as a united Caliphite). The Muslim Extremists are not the only Muslims who feel this way, they are simply the ones who express their beliefs through action (however cowardly or brutal they choose to express that beleif.) Since Islamic rule is such a basic tennant of Islam, I doubt that the terrorists will ever give up (they just keep building Musadras and teaching new recruits). The question is how long will the US and other Republics maintain the will to fight in Iraq and other such places.
I can't say that the US will fall because of it's conflict in Iraq or any similar conflicts that may follow. I think it will fall because the system (political, economic and military) has been so successful that Americans take a high standard of living full of creature comforts for granted. We have granted everyone a free pass, nobody is responsible for their own actions-just blame society, your parents, somebody, anybody but yourself. And lets not forget the Blame America First crowd. Only America is ver wrong. Nobody would try to harm the US if we hadn't harmed them first. Anyway, it's a big morass that I don't think the vocal minority wants to fix and I'm not sure the silent majority cares enough to fight. Long story short, I think we will fall like the Romans, fragmenting from within so we can't defend ourselves from without.

TE, When all my friends ask me why I enlisted I just tell them, "because of the benefits".

They dont really understand why and I think you and CROwannabe Summed it up right there. Being a patriot is unheard of these days.

Hell, the media is keeping a "Casualty Count", fiending around that counter just waiting for it to hit 3,000. They did it for 1,000, 1,500, etc.

They will profoundly announce the day it comes, and relish themselves in it like it is somehow relevant to winning the war.

I think people these days are simply more concerned with their own personal safety, which is a crime shame. Look at the Rhabi in Seatle, who threatned to sue(sp?) the airport if they didnt put up any Menorahs.

How people can live their lives just waiting to be offended, clouded in their own miserable world of selfishness and self security I do not know.

I'm SO glad you said that... I think the way China makes everyone serve a minimum of 2 years automatically is incredible. While most will never see war, they know what it is to wear a uniform and become apart of something greater than themselves.

That's why some want to be PJ's and CCT's, to become apart of something greater, and hopefully learn about themselves.

While most "weak" people wouldn't agree with you, or those opposed to war, I firmly stand next to you!

I have volunteered for countless deployments, and have been turned down time after time, because they say it will be counted as a short tour and the AF doesn't allow that. Yet, I see the army get to go over there for 12 months, or people in the AF that "get injured" so they don't have to deploy, it upsets me. People need to remember one of our core values... "Service Before Self!!!"

The only problem is, is you're not the President and the only people that will hear these wonderfull opinions of all these people in here, are eachother.

TE, I couldn't agree more with what you said- I guess I may have been unclear about what I meant- I didn't mean that the military itself was stupid or unintelligent- I meant the politicians behind our strategy and other policies were and of course they are in power because the public who voted for them are ignorant.

TE brings up another interesting and important point-which means he's right on target, lol. The media is entirely liberally-biased and unfortunately, the general public has gotten so hopelessly ignorant of the real facts and will comfortambly sit back and be spoon-fed this bulls%!# from the media, which is sheer stupidity (nothing like the ignorance and stupidity). In all these stories about our fallen soldiers on "in memoriam" from "This Week" I have never heard, and to be fair I usually don't watch CBS or most news for that- I read things like this site among many others, them once say something like ," He believed in the cause of the war and knew that he was making a difference." I feel like that's the best way to remember our soldiers- of course unless it's untrue. But I think at least 90% of ALL soldiers feel like they are doing something important and good and trying to help a nation develop as a free country. At least the ones to which I have talked. Also, I know if I lost a family member in Iraq, that would be something that I would want said about him/her because it would get the message across to the people here : Don't let Washington make us quit, we are so close and have paid to much to get where we are to throw it away- don't let it be in vain. But the media doesn't say these types of things- think about why that is...

GuardMC, what you said is true. Just because a country has dedicated soldiers doesn't mean a country will not fall, but the way I see it is this: as long as we have a military comprised with a majority of dedicated soldiers it should be indicative of the status of the people back at home, and therefore showing that we are still united and will find a way.

A volunteer military would mean that the draft is obviously not enforced, and that would also indicate that people aren't having the attitude of ," Let's just get the hell out, whatever it takes even if it means this..." which is one of the worst attitudes to have, simply put a quitter's attitude. It pisses me off everytime I think about what happened in Mogadishu in 1993. Clinton was too chicken about his political career so he pulled us out, even though the men there wanted to go back and finish the job. Tell me if I'm wrong but I think all of us here feel like once you start making the first plan to go to war- you're in all the way, period. Otherwise, why even bother, and certainly once even one soldier is wounded let alone killed- you have to finish the job and learn something, otherwise that man's life is in vain.

It shocks me that most Americans saw the movie/read the book, but never took the initiative to remember what happened- who pulled us out of Somolia, why, and more importantly, the message that our politicians sent to our enemies and especially considering who are enemies were/are (I believe Osama bin Laden and of course Taliban/ AL Queda was in Somolia during that time...right?).

So, back to what you said. Yes, it is completely possible for this country to fall even with a strong military- a body without a head is useless, right? I hope that I am wrong, but I if a draft were to be put in effect, and thank God we aren't there, yet, it will be a syptom showing that it is already too late for our country.

Like TE said, this is not like any war we have had before. It's not another Vietnam. I know at the time we pulled out of Vietnam there was a possibility that if we pulled out, our enemies would hit us harder than ever before. Perhaps why Russia didn't was, ironically enough, they were fighting with Afghanistan. But let there be no doubts that this time, Al Queda, Taliban, Hezbollah,and anyone else will hit us as hard as they can if we do pull out of Iraq before the job is finished. The American people need to realize that these guys are radical muslims who love nothing more than to kill all infidels (non-muslims) and even if they kill another muslim, it is a part of allah's plan.

Okay- now to talk about the elephant in the room... what with everyone wanting to be politically correct, no one is going to say the obvious, because it might offend a muslim. The fact is there are two versions of the Koran and therefore two teachings of Islam. There is the what I call the watered-down version that most Americans believe is the real Koran and then there is the real Koran which teaches to kill all infidels. I hate to bring up religion because it's such a touchy subject but it is at the heart of this war- and that is my veiw on it- right or wrong.

Another point to bring up is what we should call getting the job finished. Logically speaking, if winning the war on terror means killing every terrorist out there, we would never wim, simply because people are emotionally-charged creatures and if a terrorists has a son who sees his father die from what to him is an infidel, then he will grow up to be a terrorists more than likely. Honestly, since I am not in the military I cannot speak intelligently on what needs to be accomplished for us to feel like Iraq can handle the struggle with the war on terror so I am going to leave that up to the operators here. But I do know that it would be foolish to not have at least some sort of military presence there in Iraq from now on for many reasons including letting them know that we won't run. Another permanent base would be seems like it would be beneficial to deploy our troops to countries like Syria and Lebannon when we finally do start to go after terrorists there.

Israel comes to mind also bombero for mandatory service...

Originally Posted By: TE


I firmly believe that a draft should be initiated within this country. Not for the political reasons...but for the right reasons...men and women of this country should be expected to serve it...if they refuse, they should be forced to leave.

Harsh, maybe...realistic...of course...America must realize the stakes regarding this long war...and suck it up...otherwise, I truty believe we are lost.


Is it really realistic that a draft be initiated in this countty?
I really don't know. The reasons TE gave make sense, but I don't see it happening without a lot of "POLITICAL"influence or whatever you want to call it. From my limited experience, the majority of the enlisted force expecially the Army, are from the lower to maybe middle class of people. I don't know what recruiting numbers are presently(help me out)but I'm guessing that they are lower than needed, because why else would the subject come up. The military is a lot of times the "only way out" of small towns/bad neighborhoods/poor grades or trouble with the law. However because of fear, disagreement or hated of leader or whatever our number of recruits are dwindling. Bonuses or other incentives still is not making it worth it for these kids. I just can't see the educated, highly influental people, senators, or a any upper class people agreeing or supporting anyone who wishes to create a draft. These people don't want their kids, who have all these "other" oppertunities to go to Iraq or where ever. Politically sending people they don't know is exceptable, but their own? I don't think it will happen.

I understand the reasons TE and others postulate for the draft; if you beneift from being a citizen of a country, you should be willing to pay it back in some form of service. And that service doesn't actually have to be the military, their are other countries whos citizens serve in other ways. The USSR, for example, required ALL citizens to perform some collective labor for the state for periods of 3 to 6 month once they were no longer minors. Most people helped with planting and the harvest in the spring and fall the year after they finished high school. No big deal.
I am actually opposed to a Military draft. Not because I think people should not serve their country, I think everyone should. I am opposed because of a very good point the SF guys of the Vietman era brought up: Draftee Casualties lead to pissed off families back home. Pissed off families lead to anti-war and anti-military sentiment. Their point was that you didn't see popular opposition to the Vietnam War until after you saw high numbers of Draftee Casualties. Now, anyone who's done the research knows that the KGB and Communist Party of Vietnam both paid, advised, provided intellegence and tactics to key Protestors in the US. No doubt about it. The point the old SF guys brought up is still valid, though. The student anti-war movement itself would not have been enough. The Protestors gained legitimacy from the families of the fallen and a few disatisfied service members. The families most upset and most vocal were the families of Draftees killed or wounded in Vietnam. They were pissed because their sons were forced to serve and lost their lives. Their sons often didn't want to serve and often were unhappy being forced to do so. (Never mind that 90% of military personnel stationed in Vietnam -drafted or volunteer-VOLUNTEERED for duty in Vietnam) The families are pissed because a personal tragedy has befallen them and they want to hold somebody else responsible. In contrast, you almost never see families of professional soldiers blame the military. Their Soldier/Sailor/Marine/Airman/Coast Guardsman told them that he had chosen his profession and accepted the risks therin. The families accepted that their man was part of the institution and did not want to denegrate his choice to serve his country dispite the risks.
I also oppose a draft because draftees who feel forced into service, have historically tended to be under motivated soldiers. The true strength of our Volunteer Military is it's motivation. Sure, we have great training and equipment. We have great Tactics, Techniques and Procedures. And once in combat even pissed off Draftees usually see that their best chance of survival is to learn everything they can and take the fight to the enemy. Still, all that being said, our greatest asset is the professionalism and high moral brought about becuase our Soldiers/Sailors/Marines/Airmen/Coast Guardsmen CHOSE to join the military. Their choice put them where they are. A man who chooses his endevors, tends to be happier doing them and tends to do everything he can to make those endevors a success. One who's circumstances are forced upon him tends to care little for the outcome (unless his own life is on the line) and tends to grouse, complain and give as little effort as he can.

Good points MC...unfortunately, when you do see the families of volunteer servicemen "pissed" because a personal tragedy has befallen them (Cindy Sheehan comes to mind), that's where the media focuses.

I would also argue (and I know you know this) that the WOT is significantly different than Vietnam...and a draft may be the only way to sustain our fight in the long run.

Many Americans believe that Iraq is a different war un-related to the greater WOT...I disagree...it's another campaign in the GWOT...like OEF, OEF-Phillipines, HOA, and as you mentioned, Serbia, Yugoslavia, etc.

We now have Iran to deal with and the ever present possibility of another Arab/Israeli war. Syria, Lebanon, North Korea and China also come to mind. Should any of them try to pull something, the US Military would be seriously over-extended.

The President has asked for a larger Army...but the Air Force is cutting 40K - 60K personnel to pay for new airplanes. I'm just not convinced a larger (how much larger?) Army is enough. As for the AF...we need new hardware for sure, I just wish it wasn't at the cost of personnel...because we need those people...after all...with all our "in lieu of" taskings for the Army...who's going to help them now?

TE,
I agree with your perspective. I figured Mrs. Shaheen would come up. She has a right to her point of view but since even her husband disagrees with her, she in a super small minority. And even though she is a minority of ONE, just as you said, the media has chosen to focus on her. I simpathize with her loss but think she is doing a disservice to her departed son by dis-honoring his decision to serve and risk his life.

I can't say I agree that the draft is our only means of sustaining our miltary in the long war but then, we've never tried it before. Certainly no other war in our history was fought without a draft. While the GWOT is our longest running war, it has actually seen the smallest increase in personnel and equipment of any of our wars (including the War of 1812). Recruiting is down and I do agree with most that part of the reason is because of the casualty count of the War on Terror. The causalties, while each one is tragic, have been very few. The Press just keeps on harping about it, though. And the military has not put out a single commercial that actually states that "we need you to fight the War on Terror". No jingoism in the press or on the military's part these days.

I am amazed that the USAF Budget is being cut again. I understand that the costs of equipment repair and ongoing operations is expensive but our military spending as part of the Gross Domestic Product is at an ALL TIME LOW. Now is not the time to cut spending; we are at war. I am truly surprized that the USAF is resorting to cutting personnel AGAIN. I see that the average Airman is doing many of the functions that MPF used to perform, most CE functions (cutting grass, housing maaintenance, etc) have been handed to contractors, and we are all doing more with less but we are getting stretched pretty thin already. We certainly need some of the new hardware (CSARX, F-22 and F-35 come to mind) but the strength of the Air Force has always been its people. When you have too few of them to keep the AF running, the capabilities of the new systems are going to be compromised. I think Senior Leadership sees that buying the equipment today will ensure that we have it later and that when the personnel system finally does prove to be broken, they can get manning increased quickly (well, at least a lot of new E-1 through E-4s and O-1 through O-3s trained up and operational) and rely on our excellent NCO Core to carry us through. It worked in the 1970s. Ofcourse we were able to avoid any wars in that time frame; we may not be so lucky now. Guess it's time to pray for another Ronald Reagan!

Definitely agree on the budget factors you brought up...here is an excellent article on the AFA site related to defense spending:

http://www.afa.org/magazine/dec2006/1206investing.asp

Excerpts:

AFA believes that the nation can and must provide more resources to fund its military. Even counting annual war costs of some $80 billion to $100 billion spent in Iraq and Afghanistan, the economic impact on the American public for defense spending is relatively light, consuming only about four percent of the nation’s $13 trillion gross domestic product. The “core” defense program—that is, the weapons, forces, and operations exclusive of actual war costs—is even lighter, taking only about 3.5 percent of GDP. By comparison, the nation devoted about 35 percent of GDP on military forces during World War II, about 10 percent of GDP during most of the Cold War, about nine percent during the Vietnam War, and more than five percent of GDP as recently as 1992, when the Cold War was winding down.

Today's spending is inadequate to support our forces given the record of the past. Higher defense spending is not “unaffordable,” as many assert.

AFA believes that we should raise spending on the core defense program by one-half of one percent of GDP—lifting it from 3.5 to 4.0 percent. This would give the services an additional $65 billion every year. That level of funding would go a long way toward rectifying today’s equipment problems. Clearly, US defense spending is insufficient in light of the current demands placed on the military. Service leaders should not have to choose between funding current wartime operations and modernizing its forces to be ready for future challenges.

Another good comparison of the amount of GDP spent on defense:

http://www.afa.org/magazine/March2006/0306chart.pdf

Damn skippy. Thanks for the links and the figures. Trying to mainitain a coherent thought with a two year old in your lap is tough enough. There was no way I could research the figures you presented to bolster my case. Thanks for fleshing out the position.

Our military is there by choice. They have a good margin of motivation. They just need a cup of preparation, 2 oz of tenacity and a sprinkle of luck. Got some good cooks and bad cooks.
Each unit has different management and does different jobs.
We have to support out troops with the best preparation available. They are putting their lives on the line for all the rest of us.
And YES! You too can charge someone with a sword...
for $60 and 14 easy lessons you will know the basics of Phillipeno double sword fighting.

Duh, this was not an offer. Just a joke from a tired bufoon.
I'm not qualified to teach, much less take money.

"I hope that's the dumbest thing you do all day"
SSgt Shane Dyar

"The truth comes in the form of a 6 to 9 round burst"
- Major Roger B Brown, 1st Ranger Bn

- Omnia Extares (latin) "let it all hang out"

"If at first you don't succeed go have a beer and try again later" -- college years

Arguing against property qualifications for voting, Benjamin Franklin used the humorous story of a man and his jackass to make a powerful point.

Today a man owns a jackass worth fifty dollars and he is entitled to vote; but before the next election the jackass dies. The man in the mean time has become more experienced, his knowledge of the principles of government, and his acquaintance with mankind, are more extensive, and he is therefore better qualified to make a proper selection of rulers—but the jackass is dead and the man cannot vote. Now, gentlemen, pray inform me, in whom is the right of suffrage? In the man or in the jackass?

First off, a quote:

Soft countries breed soft men. It is not the property of any one soil to produce both fine fruits and good soldiers too. - Cyrus

Next, a book recommendation: Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein. The book is nothing like the movie - it's a philosphical tour-de-force, delving into personal responsibilty, why we fight, and what citizens owe to their country. If you haven't read it, do so now - you'll quickly finish it and read it again, and again after that. Oh, and some cool stuff gets blown up too - Heinlein could write action just fine.

One of the things that gets lost sometimes in watching the evening news, and looking at balloon people at Wal-Mart, is that this is still a participatory democracy, and each and all of you can write your Congresspeople, organize educational "teach-ins"--which ought logically to work for both sides--organize politically once you get out, run a gym to toughen up lard butts, and a host of other things.

Rome was not the sort of democracy we have. The one advantage of democracy--which Churchill called, if I'm not mistaken, the "worst possible system, until you consider the alternatives"--is its' ability to adapt. And adaptation, unfortunately, takes the form of selling. People who believe strongly in these things have to convince our fellow citizens to believe the same things. This is possible.

I'm in Sales for a living. It's really frustrating. Not like getting shot at, or the discipline to be a top-notch soldier--I'm not whining--but in terms of dealing in a friendly way with stupid people. It's hard. But that is the price of being effective. That is my job, and in a larger sense, that is how politicaly change happens.

The media (except Australian-owned Fox) is biassed. That's a problem, not a show-stopper. It can be overcome. Americans are fat, but I actually don't think they are lazy. I know a lot of fat IT guys that work 80 hour weeks regularly. They just eat donuts and live on Mountain Dew. French people are lazy.

Believe me when I say I get enormously angry looking at Nancy Pelosi. Her face changes my mood. But she is still an American, and it is the job of all us to work to keep people like her out of office. It is our job to educate people in why conservatism is actually an intellectually credible position, and liberalism is not, even though it is taught as orthodoxy in darn near every university in the country.

All of you, I would encourage you to read as much of our history as you can, to know as much as you can. Paul Johnson is one of my favorites, and actually just got tagged with the civilian thing Bush gives out, I think it is the Presidential Medal of Freedom, along with David McCullough, who is also excellent. Read 1776, by McCullough. Read "History of the American People" by Johnson.

We have a history we are well justified in being proud of, and it is hardly completely written. I think there are a lot of chapters to go, if we don't go "European".

I will say, I went to school, as an exchange student, in Switzerland, and they have a credible claim to being the modern European Spartans. They were absolute bad-a^&es with halberds, I think it was. They were fearless, and fought as units to the death more than once. Every man gone. They were the best mercenaries in Europe. As of 1985, every Swiss male had to do about 18 months of military training, and that acted, from what I can tell, in effect as a rite of passage. They came back tougher, and ready to take on what came, like the Israelis, but without the real threat of conflict. My host family had several fully automatic machine guns--whatever the NATO 7.62 gun is--in the basement, which was also designed, by law, to be a fallout shelter. The crime there is almost non-existent.

That's my somewhat rambling two cents. My quote is from my grandfather, who was a tough old bird who drank coffee once with Zane Grey in the desert of Northern Arizona: "It's a great life, if you don't weaken."

Here, here!!!!

My favorite two quotes is my signature, look down.....

A savage, whatever be the nature of his distress, expects no sympathy from those about him, and disdains, upon that account, to expose himself, by allowing the least weakness to escape him. His passions, how furious and violent soever, are never permitted to disturb the serenity of his countenance or the composure of his conduct and behavior.

Closely related to the exaggerated confidence in our country's greatness, which tends to the disregard of the rules of national safety, another danger confronts us not less serious. I refer to the prevalence of a popular disposition to expect from the operation of our Government direct individual advantages... This is the bane of democratic institutions—a constant peril to our Government by the people.... It perverts the patriotic sentiment of our countrymen, and tempts them to a pitiful calculation of the sordid gain to be derived from their Government's maintenance. It undermines the self-reliance of our people, and substitutes, in its place, dependence on governmental favoritism. Such favoritism is without base, without fervor, and contributes to the weakness of our country, and countrymen.

There is no glory in practice. But without practice, there is no glory.

“What could be more contrary to female nature, to motherhood, than to stand unmoved and unmoving as her sons march off to death? Must not every sinew of the mother’s flesh call out in agony and affront at such an outrage? Must not her heart seek to cry in its passion, “No! Not my son! Spare him!” That women, from some source unknown to men, summon the will to conquer this, their own deepest nature is, I believe, the reason we stand in awe of our mothers and sisters and wives.

A leader does not abide within his tent while his men bleed and die upon the field. A leader does not dine while his men go hungry, nor sleep when they stand at watch upon the wall. A leader does not command his men’s loyalty through fear, nor purchase it with gold; he earns their love by the sweat of his own back and the pains he endures for their sake. That which comprises the harshest burden, a leader lifts first and sets down last. A leader does not require service of those he leads but provides it to them. He serves them, not they him.

I and every man there were never more free than when we gave freely obedience to those harsh laws which take life and give it back again.

Mercy and compassion are not virtues superior to valor.

Fortunately god in his mercy has provided a counterpoise to our species’ depravity. That gift, my young friend…is war. War, not peace, produces virtue. War, not peace, purges vice. War, and preparation for war, call forth all that is noble and honorable in a man. It unites him with his brothers and binds them in selfless love, eradicating in the crucible of necessity all which is base and ignoble. There in the holy mill of battle the meanest of men may seek and find that part of himself, concealed beneath the corrupt, which shines forth brilliant and virtuous, worthy of honor before God.

"You're 5 foot nothin', 100 and nothin', and you have barely a speck of athletic ability. And you hung in there with the best college football players in the land for 2 years. And you're gonna walk outta here with a degree from the University of Notre Dame. In this life, you don't have to prove nothin' to nobody but yourself. Am I making myself clear? If you can't do that yet, than you never will"

Janitor from one of the bet films of all time...

RUDY

Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither

Benjamin Franklin

Came across one that eclipses most I've heard:

"There are actually no more feelings. I consist only of Will . . ."

Reinhold Messner, reflecting on his second summit of Everest, solo, without supplemental oxygen, in The Crystal Horizon

"OMNIA EXTARES"- (latin) let it all hang out

"The truth comes ni the form of a 6 to 9 round burst"
-Major Roger B Brown (1st Ranger Bn)

"what was that?"
-(gun fire)-
"don't worry about it, give me the radio."

Found this the other day.

"Always do more than is required of you."
-General George S. Patton

"We're not here to die for our country. We're here to make the other poor bastards die for their country."

-Patton

"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."

-Theodore Roosevelt

Not sure if anyone has been to England but the Royal Marines Commandos had some good ads with motivating quotes on them. When I find a way to scan them I can upload and email if anyone is interested.

adw

After some more searching I found the link to a few of the ads I mentioned.

Royal Marine Commandos Ad

My favorite one is,

Your out of your depth. How much do you want to stay in?

Life isn't worth living, unless it is lived for someone else.

Albert Einstein

Another one from Einstein, in light of current events:

I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.

See sig, says it all.

Rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.

George Orwell

Ol George would know. The Russian NKVD (forerunner to the KGB) put a hit out on him during the Spanish Civil War. He had to dodge some pretty rough men meaning to do HIM harm becuase he had the audacity to protest that the Russian Communist Commisars were shooting "Socialist Volunteers" in the back when the tried to retreat in the face of overwhelming odds.
But the Liberal Press never reported the executions because all actions taken by the Socialist Party or Communitst Party are good. After all the Demigod Lenin himself said that "The ends justify the means."

A great Patton quote for those that have fallen in the spirit of Memorial Day this month....God Bless

WORD Gabe!

Sig.