Found this article and thought I would share. It's written by Terry Laughlin, author of Total Immersion. Pretty good information for those new to hypoxic swimming.

http://www.alexandriamasters.com/articles/hypoxic.htm

While training at altitude has the stated benefits:

The article completely ignores the partial pressure gas laws of gasses in solution. There is some medical impact of hypoxic training at sea level as it imposes considerable damaging stress on primarily the liver, but some other organs such as the brain without causing the body’s adaptation to altitude that training at altitude does.

I don’t suggest hypoxic training unless a trainer that has complete understanding of hypoxia and human physiology is supervising the training.

I’m somewhat bored, so here’s few bits of info for contemplating: Hypoxic-Anoxic Brain Injury:




Here’s a few notes from the required studies of being a member of the original high altitude rescue team:


The frequency of intentional exercised induced hypoxic state to replicate being at a high elevation is significant and certainly brings the menacing harm of hypoxia oxidative stress with it. The most common abnormal medical condition associated with intermittent hypoxia is obstructive sleep apnea.

Obstructive sleep apnea is characterized by episodic cycles of hypoxia and normoxia during sleep. Medical literature concerning obstructive sleep apnea typically focus on daytime sleepiness, deficits in cognitive performance, and mood and behavioral effects, and the syndrome being strongly associated with an increased risk for cardiovascular diseases.

As obstructive sleep apnea is often attributed to being overweight the other organ specifics are seldom discussed as it becomes a question of is diet and lack of exercise the cause for enlarged fatty liver or is it the repetitive frequency and duration of hypoxia oxidative stress.

If this is the type of training a person wants to participate in, my advice is make sure it’s done with a trainer supervising that is very knowledgeable and qualified in implementing such a training regime.

BTW:
This is not what is improved and is a very misleading statement. The amount of gasses put into solution, even with red blood cells having an affinity for oxygen, does not change that 4% very much. What having aerobic fitness does is give the other cellular metabolic activities better efficiency of using oxygen that is being moved as a dissolved gas in solution. To understand what is needed to increase oxygen level in the blood is to understand the opposite of hypoxia and anoxia which manifests Oxygen Toxicity. What acclimating to higher altitude does is stimulated an increased quantity of red blood cells. What also happens is the body adapts to a different pressure gradient it is being asked to perform in. Hypoxia training does not do this in the same manner as there is no change in pressure gradient.

I had no idea there was so much danger regarding the subject. Thanks for the info.

On the subjet of pressure gradient, wouldnt the training then only be temporary after the subject returns to normal elevations?

You learn well young padawin aspiring to become a Jedi master. Yes the competitive sport advantage of training at higher elevations (altitude) goes away. After perhaps 7-14 days the body has already acclimated to the lower elevations (altitude).

Being bored again, I figure I'd give a link to hyperventilation.



There is only two useful ways of increasing amount of oxygen in solution in the blood other than increasing the numbers of red blood cells.

The first is to increase the percentage of oxygen being breathed in. Studies in humans breathing 95% oxygen show a drop in diffusing capacity to 81% control after 48 hours and to 73% after 74 hours. Prolonged hyperopia for periods longer than 3 days continues a very progressive fall in diffusing capacity (a manifestation of oxygen toxicity).

The second is to change the pressure-volume relationship putting gasses into solution (the physics of gases-Boyle’s Law). High partial pressure of inspired oxygen also has a toxic effect. It is generally accepted inspired pulmonary oxygen tensions above one-half atmosphere is needed to create conditions causing oxygen toxicity.

The actual development of oxygen toxicity is a function of inspired tension, atmosphere pressure, and duration of exposure (and it's not the same for all individuals-some few people like altitude illness are predisposed sensitive).

On the humor side-- Yep oxygen can be hazardous to your health, let's regulate and tax it to insure everybody is breathing safe levels. Maybe I can get hired on to be the Oxygen Czar.

I'm resurrecting this topic due to following death reported in the news:
It would not surprise me if shallow water blackout or hypoxic swimming cause was involved.

WOW!! I grew up there and have swam in that pool many times. This is crazy to see. I do not know the men who are in the article. The AF recruiters station is a couple of blocks from that pool.

It's still hitting the papers. Latest discloses the two unconconcious swimmers were not noticed until the pool was cleared and that both were training to become PJs and there were at least two others training.

This study doesn't address all the complicated but it does so sufficiently:

Second Man Dies in Staten Island Breath-Holding Accident

A second man has died following an underwater training accident at a public pool on Staten Island. The New York Daily News reports that 21-year-old off-duty lifeguard Jonathan Proce died Sunday at New York Presbyterian Hospital following an exercise at Lyons Pool last Wednesday in which he and his friend, Bohdan Vitenko, also 21, were practicing underwater breath-holding. ...

Outcomes will probably result. I quoted this article as it is already feeding efforts to ban all breath holding and prolonged underwater swimming as well as hypoxic training at all pools.
What is not disclosed in the article is Milner’s son died in the family swimming pool with nobody supervising any of the activities.

My experience is the typical life guard is given insufficient advanced CPR training and other proficiency training to supervise prolonged underwater swimming activities should the underwater blackout happen as too often more than two minutes of insufficient oxygen to the brain has occurred before the unconscious swimmer is noticed and somebody acts to get the unconcious swimmer out of the water.

Perhaps more importantly is training to pass the PAST to get the GTEP contract is not the time or activity environment to be exceeding the 25 meter standard or attempting numerous consecutive 25 meter underwaters with belief this improves underwater endurance.

More importantly prolonged underwater swimming is the one activity a potential PJ trainees trying to get the GTEP contract or in DEP with a GTEP contract shouldn’t be doing without being certain they are being supervised (actively watched during their underwater training activities).

To add to Yukon's post:

I am lifeguard certified, and I can tell you that I do not trust my life to any lifeguard. Your life is in your hands, not theirs. I'm very frank about that to anyone who asks. Lifeguards at a water park, sea front, or lake tend to be of higher caliber because they require higher levels of training for the environment's higher potential for drowning.

However, pool lifeguards are virtually nothing more than people who run the pool and enforce the rules. Their water skills are usually meager because everyday activity requires very little time in the water itself. The water abilities test I took to become certified composed of an untimed 100m freestyle, 200m sidestroke, 100m breast-stroke, and two minute tread with hands above water. The water rescue skills are really a "one-and-done" style of familiarization, which you aren't tested over (granted, you'll do on-the-job training/refresher at the pool every now and then).

Many of the wannabes on this site very likely have more fitness and water ability if they've been training for indoc. Therefore, if you black out -- you're in serious danger. Lifeguards only know basic CPR, AED, and First Aid; and they rarely get to use it. They spend most of their time observing the children. All they are qualified to do is attempt to stabilize until the EMTs show up. Compound this all with the fact that most summer-time pool lifeguards are teens/young adults.

If you do frequent underwater training at a pool, the inevitable also happens: the lifeguards get complacent and trust you are doing things within your safe zone. The current Red Cross training does not teach anything about monitoring those who swim underwater; lifeguards are focusing on signs of active/passive drowning which are "assumed" to be at the surface of the water.

It is the responsibility of any trainee to notify the closest lifeguard that you are about to attempt something out-of-the-ordinary by your standards or if you feel whatever you are doing is unusually strenuous. At least then, you might have a chance of them rescuing you relatively quickly if you black out. It's really simple: "Hey, can you watch me real quick? I'm about to try something different today." Then when done: "Thanks, I appreciate it." I don't suggest you attempt much more than 30m without supervision if you have NEVER DONE IT BEFORE to know how your body reacts. It's not uncommon for people to black out while attempting a 50m, 75m, etc. I know two guys who have blacked out for each -- and the latter just got picked up for CRO, so it's not just the inexperienced who black out.

On the other hand, some lifeguards do feel uneasy about letting you perform breath-holding activities without movement (IE: doom-ups or lying face down in the water for time). I suggest mitigating that concern by doing something to signify that you aren't losing consciousness. While doing doom-ups, wiggle your toes. While doing breath-holds at the surface, keep your thumbs pointed upward to signify everything is good.

Don't attempt a "personal best" at the same time as your buddy, which these gentlemen unfortunately did. Have your buddy spot you.

The prolonged underwater breath holding training requirement for performing pararescue duties is brought about by an operations environment that differs considerably from the elite swimming competition environment.

Hypoxic, or breath holding or controlled frequency training has been practiced by competitive swimmers for decades. The reason is because holding your breath in a swim race is a necessity for the speed to win. For backstrokers, up to two thirds of a race in a 25-yard pool is underwater kicking. For the other strokes, the time spent underwater is not as prominent, but is still very important especially for performing efficient and effective flip turns. For timed events where difference between first and second place is seconds or even a fraction of a second it is crucial for swimmers to be able to operate and maintain high intensity with ability to breathe connected to familiar trained movements of the sporting activity. Creating hypoxia is also falsely supposed to bring about the same beneficial effects to the swimmer that running at attitude does to the track athlete. Altitude training is more beneficial for competition at altitude than at sea level, but more importantly controlled frequency breathing causes hypercapnia (an increase in the partial pressure of carbon dioxide) not hypoxia.

As stated in a previous post requires acclimation to the altitude to maximize the competitive benefits. Even so the process of acclimation does not the fundamental hypoxic stress of altitude. The body (an aerobic engine) has physiological adapting limits. The most undeniable evidence of this is individuals training at altitude cannot train at the same level of intensity for the same period of time as they could at sea level (the physiology bit more complicated, but the simpler physics similar to water boiling at a lower temperature as you increase in altitude).

There are no flip turns in the open water environment pararescue performs duties. And also the open water environment encountered in performing pararescue duties is considerably wide-ranging (temperature, sea state, and other perils) and diverse (purpose and duration being there) than encountered in performing competitive swimming activities.

The mission objective is less swimming forever at maximum speed and more other activities such as but not limited to climbing aboard a pitching life boat, securing a floatation device to something, or dragging a incapacitated/injured person to a lowered jungle penetrator, horse collar, or rescue basket. Regardless, many more muscles are being used to perform general activity other than swimming and hypoxic training does nothing to change the physiology of how the body (a big aerobic engine) needs consistent oxygen flow (perhaps better described as a level of blood oxygen saturation) to operate (stay alive). For lack of a simpler way to differentiate, the underwater breath holding training requirements for pararescue is more to strengthen the ability to control panic than it is to increase swimming speed or endurance.

Although the ability to control panic is only the easiest reaction (behavior) set apart difference to distinguish there are unique to military tasks requiring ability to hold breath and still perform at high intensity. Perhaps the best mission video I ever saw (I’ve been trying for years to find any of the lost copies) happened in 1993 off the coast of Florida.

By luck a civilian news crew was videoing the stokes litter hoisting of a patient from a tug boat sized cargo vessel. In the process of hoisting up from the pitching deck the hoist malfunctioned and the stokes litter w/patient slipped under the deck rail into the water 10-20 feet below.

As the ship was moving forward at 10 or more knots the litter w/patient was getting drug behind the ship. The PJ reacted pretty quickly and jumped into the water as the stokes was falling. He grabbed the stokes and started finning like you never seen a person fin in this life. He basically brought the stokes with patient up to the surface from at least a depth of five feet and finned to keep the patients head above the water.

The operations environment of getting a survivor in the water onto a jungle penetrator, rescue basket, or horse collar, or the securing of a floatation collar to a capsule or piece of equipment requires a lot of underwater breath holding. It is performing such tasks in the operations water environment that causes the underwater breath holding standard a requirement, and not purpose of increasing elite swimming against the clock for competitive distance ability contest between one or more other swimmers.

All the training done by a student during the Indoc course and subsequent courses required for award of AFSC are supervised by competent and proficient instructors who are aware of all the training hazards, risks and common physiological, medical, and mental/emotional problems students cope with in doing mandatory training events and activities. Trying to intensify underwater breath holding training (such as doing doom-ups which isn’t a PAST event) in ignorance in hopes of improving changes to complete training without proper supervision in-place can have--as the recent two deaths demonstrate-unintended and undesirable consequences.

Since we are on the topic of hypoxic training, Youkon what do you think of this. http://www.trainingmask.com
thanks

fokai...Proponents claim that when such athletes travel to competitions at lower altitudes they will still have a higher concentration of red blood cells for 10–14 days, and this gives them a competitive advantage. Some athletes live permanently at high altitude, only returning to sea level to compete, but their training may suffer due to less available oxygen for Workouts.

Every research study I’ve read since ca. 1977 when I got involved with High Altitude Rescue Teams to include high altitude air (SCUBA) and oxygen (closed circuit rebreather) diving and subsequently during the 1980s High Altitude High Opening –HAHO (canopy open above 20,000 feet MSL) and High Altitude Low Opening-HALO parachuting instructing and jump mastering I basically had to really start knowing human physiology. My opinion is there are too many drawbacks and high potential undesirable consequences of intermittent hypoxic training especially methods using hypoxic inducing devices during exercise. I consider such devices useless gimmicks to sucker money from the ignorant and emotionally disadvantaged/susceptible.

INTERMITTENT HYPOXIC TRAINING such hypoxic inducing devices into realm of gimmicks.


In the sporting environment “altitude training” is best suited for competition at altitude. “Altitude Training” for improving sea level performance is less beneficial and from studies I’ve read is erratic, ineffective or unreliable for lack of better words.

“In general there does not appear to be any advantage to attitude training to over that gained from the exercise training itself, that is, the responses to the two stressors is not additive (Adams, et al 1975; Haymes and Wells 1985)." Please take note the operative words are “in general” and there are other concerns not looked into by sport physiology researchers and authors that I also keep somewhat informed pertinent to high altitude diving supervisor operations, military freefall jump master operations, high altitude expedition climbing team leader and high altitude medicine that a good percentage of self-proclaimed elite fitness gurus do not bother themselves with.

I strongly suggest a sleep apnea research paper be read for every hypoxia training marketing claim-such as reference the extracted training mask quote above as an example-read. Sleep apnea is a sleep disorder characterized by abnormal pauses in breathing or instances of abnormally low breathing, during sleep; it causes levels of hypoxia corresponding to the severity of the sleep apnea condition.

Most sports physiology studies have results suggesting that an improvement in sea-level performance from altitude is possible if the athletes live at moderate altitudes (2500- 2700m, 8620-8900ft) but train at lower altitudes that permit maintaining a high training intensity (live high-train low).

The drawback is large individual physiology variations make the specific response benefit unpredictably randomized. There is also some evidence to suggest that endurance performance is affected by the timing of the descent to sea level after a sojourn to altitude. One study identified a decrease in competition performance during the first two days at sea level and the first phase of enhanced work capacity occurring between days 3 and 7, followed by a decrease between days 8 and 10. Performance was shown to continue to improve between days 12 and 13, with the best results achieved on days 18 to 20, but was unable to explain why and other studies have had different results. Perhaps more importantly few if any sports athlete physiology studies have tested subjects on more than one occasion after return to sea level.

In professional team sports two predominate choices have come into use when competing at altitude. The first is to arrive at altitude 12-18 hours prior to the activity. This strategy does not counter the hypoxic performance impairments of attitude, but rather to minimize the potential chances that acute altitude sickness will impair performance (Haymes and Wells 1986; Ratzin Jackson and Sharkey 1988; Weston 2001).

The second option is to train at the same attitude as the eventual competition. This is an acclimation strategy that requires a minimum of 10-20 days of living at and training at the competition attitude and even then the sea-level athlete will not be as physiologically adapted as the athlete who has always resided at this attitude or the athlete who has been there for a year. Acclimation is much more complicated physiological shift involving more than oxygen levels.

Elevation Training Mask cannot mimics the affect of High Altitude Training, it’s a many laws of physics impossibility. The simplest specific is human athletes living and training at sea level using intermittent hypoxic training methods and devices are unable to develop similar levels of circulating hemoglobin–red cell mass as those living and training at attitude for 10-20 days or longer.

BTW some trainers are legitimate and some are self-proclaimed fitness gurus lacking any formal sports physiology learning and personal trainer competence background is exaggerated if not completely fraudulent. My advice of-- I don’t suggest hypoxic training unless a trainer that has complete understanding of hypoxia and human physiology is supervising the training-given in my first post in this thread should not be ignored.

Many more frauds in the personal fitness trainer business now that fitness regimes discussed on these and other forums open easy money making opportunities by simply marketing “Our focus is on your health and fitness” and listing a purchased online tested certification that lacks any performance and knowledge competency quality control verification capability in-place to identify and correct negligent training practices and methods harmful to students health and welfare.

I agree with Yukon that the training mask is nothing more than an aggrandized gas mask, which you can get for much cheaper anyway. MMA fighters and even some in the military do like to do endurance Workouts with a mask on -- but it has nothing to do with altitude simulation and everything to do with building lung (diaphragm) strength.

At higher altitude, you are developing hemoglobin in response to a lower O2 concentration. It's a chemical response. With that mask at sea level, you're still breathing air with the normal amount of O2 saturation just as you would without the mask. The difference is it's adding resistance to air flow and induces more stress on your respiratory muscles. There is no chemical alteration of the air you are breathing in. At most, it might increase your CO2 levels by also restricting full exhales which is a different scheme of physiological training altogether.

@Yukon: What are your thoughts on static apnea training (breath hold tables) that free divers do? It's designed to gradually build low O2 tolerance in a certain regimen while another builds high CO2 tolerance. Plus, it can be performed safely out of the water. It's the only basis of "breath training" exercise I've tried, aside from normal water con and physical conditioning.

The same can be accomplished by having sex with a really fat girl with her being on top. However resistance to air flow is stress other structures of the lungs other than chest and abdominal breathing muscles. Such activity certainly brings with it risks of spontaneous pneumothorax and if the tear is significant hemothorax.

I do not indorse hypoxic training being done by civilians or elite want to bes outside of supervised training environment. I’m even reluctant to discuss methods used in military training as in most civilian training situations, circumstance, and facilities properly trained and certified current and proficient trainers are not present.

Too much improperly or incorrectly done can do you in. During such training activities encountered in the military at courses such as Pararescue Indoc There will be instructors watching from above, below and even from the side to make sure that this is performed under controlled conditions. Do not screw around with this one. More importantly they have the medical training, medical equipment, drugs and quick access of the student in distress to an emergency trauma center to provide advanced lifesaving treatments.

My intent in every comment is to avoid tragic injury and death consequences of doing training in belief it is needed prior to seeing a military recruiter or reporting to BMT as a succeed necessity. I’m not a a recruitment trainer motivator and even if I were there are plenty of memos put out to members of the special operations forces community not to do certain training events outside of the controlled training environment of the course such activities are done.

Indisputably those asking question of me have no professional physiology training and learning or professional (being paid to do) task performance in compensated (paid to do) arrangement as being in such arrangement would bring with it some qualification training and access to medical professional subject experts.

The recent double training deaths discussed in this thread as I mentioned will have outcomes due to press releases saying military training to become SEAL and pararescue was contributing cause to activities resulting in the deaths. I provided sufficient information having force of probability the training risks are more than the hoped for athletic performance improvement. These risks also are present in static apnea training (breath hold tables) that free divers do.

BTW it's more than a chemical response. The chemical response or rather organic chemical reactions being considered in this discussion is functional requiring specific arrangements to happen correctly to sustain life. There is much more involved than bonding, disolving, oxidation, etc and levels of oxygen and carbon dioxide in the blood.

Copy all, Yukon. I understand the position the staff are correctly taking to ensure this community remains safe. Unfortunately, these two young men will be a case study by which we must pay strict attention to.

As far as the chemical response: I do understand it's a bit more complex (I got my degree in Biology, Chem minor). I meant to help fokai_zach understand the simple difference of the air's chemical composition at altitude vs sea level and the mask can't change that (counter to what the product claims). One would either need a different source of air (IE: a compressed tank) or a generator to provide you with filtered O2 content.

And I'll be sure to keep from having sex with really fat girls. I definitely don't want a collapsed lung!

Still a safer activity than autoerotic asphyxiation.

Some individuals are attracted to asphyxia during masturbation to heighten the intensity of organism. David Carradine of Kill Bill fame death was the result of autoerotic asphyxiation. My opinion is making a fat girl happy has a longer behavioral life expectancy.

The percentage of oxygen in air remains constant at 20.93% to an altitude of 100,000m (328,083 feet). What does change is barometric pressure which means partial pressure (density) decreases as altitude increases. At sea level the concentration mix (80% nitrogen-20% oxygen) of oxygen needs to be below 16% for the development of hypoxia. Ventilation resistance increases does not change the concentration mix, it does however create conditions of insufficient intake of aspiration commonly called asphyxia.

You caught me before I could edit! You're correct about the O2 concentration. After brushing up just now, and after thinking about it from a physics standpoint, it's the barometric pressure that makes the difference. Technically, the air's composition is nearly the same but the rate of diffusion changes... which causes our bodies some distress since 4/5 of our air doesn't contain the most essential element to keep our brains (and secondarily the muscles) from wigging out.

I guess I had gotten confused because people who train at sea level who want to simulate altitude conditions tend to make the air have a lower O2 content because it's much harder to affect pressure (unless you have a chamber). That, and my mind is over-exaggerating what altitude in Colorado is compared to actually being at "high altitude" is in the atmosphere.

Just walk around breathing through a straw all day.

For athletes, high altitude produces two contradictory effects on performance. For explosive events (sprints up to 400 metres, long jump, triple jump) the reduction in atmospheric pressure means there is less resistance from the atmosphere and the athlete's performance will generally be better at high altitude.[19] For endurance events (races of 5,000 metres or more), the predominant effect is the reduction in oxygen, which generally reduces the athlete's performance at high altitude. Sports organizations acknowledge the effects of altitude on performance: the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF), for example, have ruled that performances achieved at an altitude greater than 1,000 metres will not be approved for record purposes.

Athletes can also take advantage of altitude acclimatization to increase their performance.[4] The same changes that help the body cope with high altitude increase performance back at sea level. However, this may not always be the case. Any positive acclimatization effects may be negated by a de-training effect as the athletes are usually not able to exercise with as much intensity at high altitudes compared to sea level.

This conundrum led to the development of the altitude training modality known as "Live-High, Train-Low", whereby the athlete spends many hours a day resting and sleeping at one (high) altitude, but performs a significant portion of their training, possibly all of it, at another (lower) altitude. A series of studies conducted in Utah in the late 1990s by researchers Ben Levine, Jim Stray-Gundersen, and others, showed significant performance gains in athletes who followed such a protocol for several weeks.[20][21] Other studies have shown performance gains from merely performing some exercising sessions at altitude, yet living at sea level.[22]

The performance-enhancing effect of altitude training could be due to increased red blood cell count,[23] more efficient training,[24] or changes in muscle physiology.[25][26]

Or walk around like NickyP lacking understanding of why performances achieved at an altitude greater than 1,000 meters (3280.839 feet) will not be approved for record purposes by the keepers of some record books.

One element of ascent to altitude is cardiovascular endurance is compromised by 7.5% at elevations between 1200- 2270m (4000-7500ft), 10% between 2300-2730m (7600-9600ft), and 15% between 2750-3640m (9100-12000ft). However the reduction of air resistance (less air density) at higher altitudes also advantages doing sprints and other muscular endurance and power events. This is why the complete International Association of Athletics Federation (IAAF) Competition rule is more accurately disclosed as stating “sprint and jump performances achieved at altitudes above 1000m above sea level are classed as "altitude assisted".

I suppose I can also throw a bit more natural earth science and physics complication into discussion in pointing out a person weighs less the higher in altitude they ascend and thus performance also gets a weight loss assist from decreasing gravity as altitude increases.



Also:
Thus a 170 pound person at sea level would weigh 122.4 pounds on the summit of Mt. Everest.

Wikipedia is not wide-ranging and complete. “Could be” indicates supporting evidence lacks certainty.

The changes in partial pressure influences all sort of organ function changes not limited to the cardiorespiratory system, such as kidney, liver functions and even water loss due to sweat evaporation (the skin is the largest body organ).

For example within two days of altitude exposure hemoglobin (red blood cell) concentration not numbers increases through a process called hemoconcentration. This is simply saying the same number of oxygen transferring red blood cells are simply concentrated in a smaller volume of blood, there is no increase in the numbers of red blood cells. The blood volume loss reflects a total body loss through the kidneys and through increased respiratory evaporation owing to the compensatory increased breathing rate.

Hemoconcentration increases the viscosity of the blood which means increased resistance to blood flow which causes increase in heart rate to maintain adequate blood flow.

The physiological stresses and adaptation to altitude are much more complicated than these forums are able to present and inform. The crucial awareness needed to be understood is hypoxia training and altitude training puts stresses on the proper functioning of the body that gives very little signs and symptoms to the individual of normal or even of less than normal health to become aware of.

The purpose of my lengthy comments is to provide awareness there are many underlying medical conditions that such stress can cause sudden unexpected risk to life consequences.

My moral obligation is to ensure those aspiring to become PJs, CCT, SEAL or whatever remain safe in their physical fitness preparedness to enter formal training to become.

Intermittent hypoxic and excessive/unnecessary underwater breath holding training beyond the 25 meter PAST standard is not needed to pass the PAST and is not beneficial to successfully getting through Indoc training.

Altitude Training-Colorado Swimming INC

So all these devices and training methods are just dangerous ways to build mental toughness

The attachment of mental toughness into the discussion of intermittent hypoxia training changes purpose from improving or strengthening physical capability to a discussion of psyche (the human faculty for thought, judgment, and emotion; the mental life, including both conscious and unconscious processes; the mind in its totality, as distinguished from the body).

Although characteristics of psyche, stress reaction and mental toughness are dissimilar. Mental toughness is associated to willingness, commitment, conviction, and resolve which are as equally conscious and subconscious mind. Stress reaction is mostly subconscious and subconscious mind is extremely difficult-if not impossible-to change or modify.

Intermittent hypoxic training, extreme (excessive/unnecessary) underwater breath holding activities having purpose for adapting or strengthening physical performance differs considerably in training environment from the training environment dealing with psyche. The preponderance of psychological research indicates the psyche useful for doing jobs like PJ/CCT/SEAL and similar special operations forces occupations is developed and stabilized during childhood and adolescence.

Military training and in particular special operations forces training for occupations like USAF Pararescue completely lacks any effort to build lacking or inadequate mental toughness. What it does do, especially Pararescue Indoc, is find who has mental toughness and who lacks it.

It is impossible to self-train for purpose of modifying psyche.

When such training is done it must be done in a very controlled and sufficiently supervised training environment. Resistance training given during SERE training given to all aircrew and battlefield airman AFSCs involves more psychological stress than physical hardship and stress. There is no attempt to modify or change psyche but because of the dangers of acute stress reactions (panic/anxiety attack and Claustrophobi-most common) getting triggered such training is given in a very controlled and sufficiently supervised training environment.

The operation environment pararescue executes missions in is not the time or place for an underlying unknown/undiagnosed or concealed personality disorders to be stress reaction triggered. Self-disclosure and pencil and paper tests are unreliable/ineffective screening methods. Acute stress disorders and other personality disorders are dangerous to both the individual and his team mates.

Functional fitness includes possessing mental and emotional fitness needed to perform the duties in the typical operations environment. The intermittent hypoxic training, underwater breath holding training, and attitude acclimation discussed in this thread has nothing to do with developing or strengthening mental toughness.

fokai_zach, you have an agenda, what is it?

Some competitive athletes might have an advantage using these methods. As far as the mask is concerned, I think its just a way to swindle money out of people. Hypoxic swimming is dangerous. As you have read in Yukons posts. All the gains you need to make in your training need consist of just doing more gradually and safely; Whether its running, swimming, or muscle endurance.

Yukon, obviously wannabes going into Indoc. with the minimum standards (PAST) can still succeed at graduating Indoc. as overwhelming evidence has shown. I myself for the last few years have trained in pool doing under waters, etc.. Back in the day, if I remember reading correctly, everyone started doing under waters at a 1:30min interval during Indoc. Now they gradually work down to 1:30min interval starting at 3:00min interval. I have worked my way down to being able to do 7x1:30 safely. After that I do not really feel comfortable going further in a public pool even with life guards and buddies. As you have posted you are against the training beyond the limits of the PAST obviously for safety reasons. I think experience and knowing your limits along with being safely supervised with the combination of lifeguards and buddies you can gradually work your way do being able to do more than the PAST which in turn can boost confidence in the pool prior to Indoc. I know this seems contradictory as I have said I do not trust lifeguards or buddies watching me. But knowing when to STOP (knowing your limits/slowly and gradually working your way up to a faster pace more reps and further distance) and being properly supervised is what can separate you from leaving the pool safely or floating lifeless in the 3ft end of the pool. As this is not necessary for success or guarantees it, this confidence CAN make for better personal success. I know all about quitting and either way you can never duplicate the stress of Indoc. And as much as you train at home cannot push yourself beyond the limits of what Indoc. can produce. Even if you can do 10x1:20s prior to Indoc., the quitters are going to quit regardless. As far as myself, I had trouble doing 3:00 intervals the first time I was there. And that was the first two weeks of Indoc. This put a heavy mental burden on me at the time and I told myself I can't do this many times. And one day i let my mind get the most of me and quit. I know this time around, mentally, I am prepared. Now I'm not saying that me being able to do under waters better is the reason but it will definitely make it easier physically.

For others that read this I do not want you to think its okay to try this. Yukon is 100% right. Its dangerous!! Now those 2 men training for SEAL and PJ will never get the chance to even try. And as Yukon has stated, the PAST is the only thing you need to train for before Indoc. There are NO guarantees of successfully graduating Indoc. even if you can do 7x1:30min interval under waters. The instructors at Indoc. are professionals at their jobs and is the only place you should ever attempt to do more than your bodies limits.

Confidence is a quality dependent on reliance. What you describe is I’m relying on past successful accomplishment which means I can do it again.

Lack of or weak confidence is not the cause for the self-elimination from training. Many people such as myself, TE and many others had a confidence struggled with the physical hardship of just barely doing training events throughout the indoc course. The situation and circumstances were being weak or ineffective swimmer or runners, or weak in doing calisthenics in comparison to others who were successful competitive runners, swimmers, football players, wresters, gymnasts in high school and university/college.

Being able to do at a high intensity level makes day after day repetition of such physical activity easier, unfortunately there is still the psyche. What caused you to decide to self-eliminate the first time is still present in your psyche.

The US Army Ranger School has a considerable student history of individuals getting 3-4 class opportunities and self-eliminating themselves out of every class to result in never graduating the course. There is of course history of-and some being documented in video documentaries on cable channels-of students getting second and third chance to get through indoc. Some were successful, others were not, all however stated they had more confidence in abilities to do the training in the second or third chance.

Confidence can fail you as confidence being conscious effort of choice is the weakest coping mechanism when in duress. Best of luck NickP, but I’ve seen confidence flee from a lot of very self-proclaimed confident people when the going got tough. It is your unconscious psyche that will get you through, not your self-proclaimed confidence which is nothing more than if given choice I will do.

Confidence is probability, since you quit once, the stronger probability is you will quit the second time. BTW, Psychology Today has an article suggesting having to pee increases will power. So don’t pee in the pool during water confidence training as having to pee might be willpower helpful which is perhaps more useful to completing the water confidence training event than confidence.

BTW-Good luck in your 25JUL11 development course and 8AUG11 Indoc class.

I 100% agree Yukon. I was trying to say that in my last post but you definitely put it in better words. I am not relying on confidence or the ability to do something cause I have done it before. I am relying on knowing now that I can and will Defeat the psyche element. I had to quit, unfortunately, to realize many things in the mental aspect. Thanks for the support.

Hi Yukon

Sorry for the late reply. My agenda is to cut my run time from 6:30 mile to sub 5 minute mile.

About the confidence part, my wrestling coach always told me, " I could put my 5 year old child with all the confidence in the world to compete with world champions, but will his confidence make him win?" I always replied no.

Good article, it explains why I always feel like I need to pee when I am getting choked while rolling in jiu jitsu class, for I don't like to tap to chokes.

fokai_zach my question was answered as soon as you made a post in another thread. You made no intro post and at the time of my question your only posts were in this thread.

BAHAHAHA! nice to see your sense of humor Yukon, even if it's still textbook verbiage. glad i searched 'lung capacity' out of curious boredom.