I believe this new policy of discharging quitters has definite pros and cons. It hurts the people being discharged by (for many of them) ending their career goals, leaving them not knowing what to do next. While it could be said that these people should know this prior to entering, many I have talked to have no clue. On the plus side, some people hearing about this(the self-doubters) are reconsidering and changing their job choice. If everyone choosing special ops jobs were informed of this I believe the amount of applicants would go down considerably and the ones going in would be a more motivated group, possibly leading to a higher pass rating and saving the air force money.

I know of this policy and still have every intent of going to BMT March 23rd and continuing on to be a PJ. I will never quit. I will perform to the best of my ability at all times and will make it through training. And though this new policy more than likely will not change the people I start indoc with, I am curious if the Air Force and its recruiters are going to make this information more evident to special ops applicants in the future in order to save everyone more time, money, and disappointment.

When was it a policy any entry enlistment brought with it any garanteed upward mobility in rank into the noncommissioned officer ranks and a career entitlement or even a subsequent second enlistment?

It was not until the mid 1930s was there any attention by Congress to impose a years of service retirement of less than 30 years for “able bodied” members of the enlisted ranks. BTW retirement pay for thirty years of was not generally available for workers in the civilian sector either back in the 1930s. Such a retirement back then was considered fair and liberal.

If you look at existing laws of force strength management with comparison to enlisted rank, noncommissioned officer rank with career force structure you will notice enlisted are not considered having a career until second enlistment and are not counted as part of the career force structure until the third enlistment. Also a look at High Year of Tenure (Retention Control Point) and promotion policies will reveal enlistment has no career entitlement.

The only obligation any of the military services have pertinent to an initial entry enlistment is to medically examine and classify for training and military service in the Armed Service. The training to perform duties in the modern high technology military, especially for occupations like PJ and CCT, has become a very expensive liability for the Military Departments.

All no-prior service civilians desiring to perform PJ or CCT duties get offered applicant status when they sign a Guaranteed Enlistment Training Program Contract. Getting offered GTEP means prerequisite screening (ASVAB, PAST, MEPS medical examination) and the individual’s stated commitment and conviction of willingness to perform PJ or CCT duties is measured objective assessment the individual has the ability. Unfortunately the military service have never developed any effective before arriving at BMT metal health and character trait screening assessments, consequently I suggest the new policy gets applicants to expose their character flaws and weak character traits a bit sooner in the enlistment screening process.

There is also the very visible (noticeable) few SIEed and for other reasons eliminated from training applicants who develop noticeable compatible attitudinal and behavioral differences they bring with them into the AFSC they are reclassified into as often the motivation to get a GTEP contract is to avoid getting classified into specialties like Security Forces, Services, and etc.

The results is the Air Force isn’t wasting as much money and the recruiting service provides recruits to the Air Force who are enlisting to do jobs such as Security Forces, Services, and etc.

I had no intention of portraying anyone having a guaranteed career entitlement and/or even a second enlistment(I actually said "career goals" which differ between each individual). All I meant was many new applicants/recruits have every intention on staying in the service as long as they can. Which I why I tried to pick my words carefully by saying "some" or "many" of them. But the fact that you pointed out about how enlistment has no career entitlement to it, still leaves me in the wrong.

All I meant is that these people have made plans to be Active Duty Air Force for at least the next four years of their lives.

And you are still are wrong in believing any employer including a government agency or military service owes you employment when you failed to live up to your obligations of the hire agreement. All the pre-hire job offer screening the Air Force did prior to offering you a Pararescue GTEP hire contract indicated you have the capability to successfully complete all required training. You state you won’t quit, so why do you suddenly begin expressing fear of failure weeks before you report to BMT?

You’re no longer expressing career goals when a specific career anchor and career planning is a specific employer must provide somebody a backup placement with pension, benefits, and compensation (wages/salary) when for whatever reason they are found unsuitable (did not adapt well, did not perform well, medical condition disqualification, undesirable character traits, weak or unstable mental or emotional fitness) for the job they were initially hired to do after they were hired.

The Air Force like all employers pursue employment planning to ensure the recruiting and hiring of the best candidate to do the work needed to get done. Unlike the civil and private sectors, the military has an immense training liability. This training liability exist as a result of several national security and military objectives, however, included in these objectives is to attract recruits who are not only willing to perform military duties but are also willing to do a good job for the Air Force.

Your comments are all focused on the military services, specifically the United States Air Force, having absolute obligation to provide a multi-career path with no consideration to the costs of getting a replacement or of the costs of placing somebody who has a career anchor of being a PJ or CCT into another job position they have weaker willingness to be there doing a good job.

Your perspective of current reclassifying Airmen policies for failing to complete their initial required for award of AFSC technical training courses focuses on “failure to become an important special operator” and not on the Air Force has made the decision to give Non Prior Service (NPS) applicants in DEP first priority for available entry seats. The PJ specialty has its strongest managed force structure focus on AFSC/skill level and its weakest managed force structure focus on total AFSC manning. Due to Team Leader and other line NCO mission ned requirements AFSC/grade force structure management concerns are somewhere in-between strongest and weakest focus, thus this is the meat and potatoes behind “Quality and not Quantity”.

As much as the Air Force dislikes the high failure rate, the Air Force is extremely impressed by the resulting qualified rookie pararescuemen who are not only willing to perform military duties, and do a good job for the Air Force, but also do so throughout their enlistment no matter how rough, dangerous and intrusive into personal life deployment and missions become. This is reflected by the higher reenlistment rates of proven quality performers and accomplishers than found in most other AFSCs. Thus the rest of the Air Force has seen-the-light of the results of standards adhering to Quality not Quantity. The results is it stinks to be identified as a failure in today’s Air Force as the potential better quality replacement is sitting in DEP waiting for their chance to succeed and excel in their Air Force career path.

your right yukon, there was a lot about this topic that i didn't know. I just expressed my feelings on it, and I'll continue to leave the specifics to you guys. you know your stuff, obviously.

Only other thing is I'm not worried about not making it. I will not quit. This new policy has never given me second thoughts and I will perform to best of ability and even better. This new policy is another reason not to quit, on top of many personal ones. I simply have had a few questions on different subjects because i tend to sometimes be overly inquisitive. I ask questions about things I really don't need to know, but want to know anyways haha

Just got back from my son's final meeting before he leaves for BMT on the 11th (Tuesday). Recruiter informed us that the AF has reconsidered discharging PJ hopefuls. If I understood him correctly, quitters will be sent home, but washouts will be re-classed. Apparently they realized that a blanket policy of sending PJ hopefuls home wasn't in the best interest of the AF since just getting a GTEP for PJ is quite a feat. Hope that helps clear up some of the questions.

i washed out of pj indoc a few months and they allowed me to reclass to TACP!! the discharge is a rumor and a rumor at that!! in fact some guys wanted a discharge and wanted to come back in a pj reserve unit but the AF wouldnt allow them a discharge they are reclassing everyone into different afsc's unless you get a light medical waiver or fail evals and have potential then they will keep you and set you back but most guys are being reclassed..hope this helps

Let me get this right, the policy of discharging washouts is no longer in place?
I'm very confident that I'm ready, but unforeseen things do happen, and my recruiter told me straight up that I would be discharged in the event of my failing to complete the pipe. (I perceived this as being a positive, so I could potentially try for a team in another branch of the military.)

Read Yukon's post, especially the quoted material.

I interpreted the quoted section as saying that the AF would reclassify only the most well-qualified of the trainees who had washed out of pararescue. I didn't find what factors contribute to being the most well-qualified. I'd hope it isn't just ASVAB score.

Then MyKidsMom said the AF had re-evaluated their stance, so I'm almost back to square one.

I'll drop in on my recruiter in the morning and find out what factors play into it. If I end up with an answer, I'll post it.

Each person that has posted here has posted what a recruiter has told them. Until something is official, it is simply what one recruiter has told someone else...it may be right it may not be...it may be partially right. There is no reason to post anything that is not official. Recruiting Service is notorious for not getting the word out to every recruiter out there...witness the PAST variations I've seen over the years.

The factors are hinted at in Yukons post "...while retaining only Airmen with the highest aptitude, motivation and attitude." Those are the keys to retention if you fail an AFSC awarding course, so that's what will be looked at...along with ASVAB and the reason(s) for failure.

The needs of the Air Force policies dealing with those getting reclassified because they SIE or are eliminated from training for other reasons and the policies concerning Air Force Recruiting Service enlisting non prior service and prior service have distinct separation.

The combination of high unemployment, force strength reductions, and fewer airman deciding to separate has caused a manpower glut the Air Force has to resolve somehow. For enlisted force structure the emphasis has always been retain quality and replace with new blood as the eight year enlistment contract retains those separated after the first enlistment (typically 4-years) on inactive reserve hook for mobilization call up until the eight years has passed.

Past philosophy of training money and time invested can be recouped by reclassifying is transforming to why continue throwing good money at a bad investment.

Screening courses that have significantly physically demanding course training objectives differ slightly from academic courses as the Air Force fitness standard is much lower and this gives a bit of leeway on how to deal with those who SIE or fail pass the indoc course. In the past reclassification was the stronger option on the table as the Air Force gave no nudging to stamp bad investment or good investment on those who SIE or failed to progress in training. The nudging is now a reality, I suggest avoid being the bad investment as administrative separation has equal or more probability with reclassification for those who SIE or are eliminated from training, especially before 180 days of active duty have been completed.

AF officials return high year tenure rates to previous lengths
"HYT balances experience and youth in the Air Force. As enlisted Airmen move up in rank or out of the Air Force, other enlisted members can be promoted into those ranks."

FY10/FY11 Force Management Program - Questions and Answers

1. Why did the Air Force expand its Force Management actions? Answer: High retention rates have contributed to the Air Force exceeding its authorized end strength ceiling and are contributing to growing imbalances among skill sets and experience levels. Fewer Airmen than expected applied for voluntary separation under programs we offered during the fall of 2009. Therefore, we are now implementing both voluntary and involuntary measures with the goal of sizing and shaping our force levels consistent with our authorized end strength ceiling.

10. What is the Air Force doing to ensure you don't "gut" AFSCs as you've done in the past? Answer: Each career field has been and will continue to be analyzed separately to develop the optimal 30-year sustainment outlook in support of current and emerging mission requirements.

Great info. Thank you for taking the time to spell it all out.

Show up, train hard, don't quit. Always give 100% and the air force is very unlikely to screw you because of factors beyond your control( injury).

As of 27 may 2010 all pararescue candidates signed a paper stating that if they self eliminate (i.e say "i quit" or fail the initial PAST test) they are going to be discharged. I know for a fact because I signed the paper on thursday!!! Injuries are put on pre-team and start the next available class. There are trainees that have been in as many as 3 classes and trainees that have been washed out after failing 2 consecutive evals in one class and give the opportunity to reclass. IF YOU QUIT, YOU WILL BE DISCHARGED! Other discrepancies are in the hands and needs of the Air Force.

Would someone who had received such a discharge have a harder time enlisting with another service? Say someone got discharged from the AF for failing (quitting) the PJ program; would that person have a harder time getting, say, an 18X contract with the Army than someone who has never served before?

If you are discharged for failing an event or for quitting, there is little hope of getting picked up for another SOF program. All SOF are looking for the same basic personality traits, which generally boil down to "Never Quit". They may make an exception if your Training Report is exceptional and the reason you failed has no bearing on the program you are applying for. That seems an unlikely case. That's just my opinion.

to Geenie, i can tell you what was told to me from an Army recruiter

When I first started this whole wanting to join the military I went to the Air Force, The Navy, and the Army and was open with all of them that i was talking to all of them. long story short Air Force hands down is the best fit for me and I don't plan on quitting.

Also from my understanding you get selected to try out for the Army's SF. Meaning that you would go infantry (11b) then try out then if you wash out hey your in the infantry. They tried to convince me this was a good thing that its like a ladder and if you fail a step you get to fall back on the step you were just at. Personally I dident like this because it means there is not an actual commitment that they will give you a shot at a SF job

I think what the army recruiter who was telling me that was talking about this

"There are four entry-level Special Forces Military Occupational Specialties. The decision of which specialty you will be trained in is based on your background, aptitude, desire and the needs of the Army"

that was taken off of www.goarmy.com Meaning you don't get to pick what your going for and if/when you fail welcome to the infantry. The guys I talked to in the army told me that during the recruiting process they basically just dangle the SF in front of you just so they can fill the infantry and hey if you actually make it then no harm no fowl they got a SF member out of the deal. (I am not knocking the Army's recruiting processes I am just repeating what an active duty member of the army told me, and what I experienced while talking with them)

Now more to your ? i was told no. I was told that if i were to join the Air Force and go for PJ or any other job for that mater and wash out, more then likely they wouldn't even let me enlist as 11b. And it would be a solid no if my discharge was from a medical issue or an injury or if I self eliminated.

I guess I should correct my statement - it was the Special Ops Liaison who told us that the AF reconsidered a blanket discharge policy. This was during a meeting we were in with the recruiter right before my son left. He said that the AF realized the PJ hopefuls are the top of the line recruits so barring an "I Quit!", they try to find a place for them. I don't know if the liaison has better information than the recruiter or not, but I thought I should clarify who it was that actually said it to us.