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#45938 - Wed May 07 2008 13:23 PM ? about depth perception
enigmadsm Offline
New Member

Registered: Sun Apr 20 2008
Posts: 27
At meps I got a class 3 flight physical. I did well on everything, but unfortunately I failed the depth perception test. So now it says that CCT is unavailable to me. PJ still is, but not CCT (i'm assuming because ATC is not as well).
Anyways, is there anyway I can retake the depth perception test, or am I stuck with not being able to give it a shot?

Thanks

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#45940 - Wed May 07 2008 13:35 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: enigmadsm]
dlg Offline
New Member

Registered: Tue Feb 05 2008
Posts: 16
Loc: Louisville, KY STS
I failed the first time. They allowed me to retake and I passed. It can be a tough test, but you have to be very patient and do not allow the MEPS nurse to rush you.
_________________________
"Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far." - African Proverb

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#45941 - Wed May 07 2008 13:45 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: dlg]
Sacks Offline
New Member

Registered: Fri Jul 27 2007
Posts: 51
Loc: Iowa
I failed the depth perception test and I got a CCT contract. I questioned my recruiter about this because I thought that would disqualify me. He told me that the rules have changed and failure of depth perception is no longer a DQ. His commander confirmed this. He said it changed about 6 months ago. Now I guess he could be wrong and I will be in for a rude awakening shortly, but like I said I have a CCT contract.

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#45942 - Wed May 07 2008 14:18 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: Sacks]
enigmadsm Offline
New Member

Registered: Sun Apr 20 2008
Posts: 27
Well hopefully they either let me still get the contract, or let me re-take the test. If not I will still go for PJ, but the emt section during pipeline kind of makes me nervous haha. I know I can deal with it, but it may be difficult at first.

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#45944 - Wed May 07 2008 14:34 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: enigmadsm]
Sacks Offline
New Member

Registered: Fri Jul 27 2007
Posts: 51
Loc: Iowa
If someone that knows anything about this could chime in it would be very appreciated. I have been kind of nervous that something may have been over looked and this will come back to bite me in the butt.

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#45947 - Wed May 07 2008 15:44 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: TE]
enigmadsm Offline
New Member

Registered: Sun Apr 20 2008
Posts: 27
Thank you very much for your quick response, and for clearing that up for me. It is much appreciated!

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#49792 - Tue Mar 24 2009 12:24 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: enigmadsm]
TheRoad64 Offline
Operator

Registered: Fri Oct 17 2008
Posts: 163
Loc: Bragg
TE,
Can you provide a reference for this that I can show the flight surgeon in case he isn't aware? My flight physical is coming up, and I'm a little worried about DP.

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#49811 - Wed Mar 25 2009 10:03 AM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: TheRoad64]
RenderSafe Offline
New Member

Registered: Sun Feb 01 2009
Posts: 26
Loc: Nellis
Will, i emailed you the CCT fact sheet that states no depth perception req.

if anyone else needs this pm me an email address.


Edited by sparky13r (Wed Mar 25 2009 10:04 AM)

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#49812 - Wed Mar 25 2009 12:03 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: RenderSafe]
TheRoad64 Offline
Operator

Registered: Fri Oct 17 2008
Posts: 163
Loc: Bragg
I have a feeling a fact sheet I print off of ST.com is not going to be enough for the flight surgeon, since many folks I know are getting tested on DP for their Class III.

EDIT: I found the AFI, 48-123 Vol 3, dated 5 June 06.
States CCT is required to have functional depth perception for their duties as a scanner.



Edited by TheRoad64 (Wed Mar 25 2009 12:16 PM)

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#49820 - Wed Mar 25 2009 20:27 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: TheRoad64]
TE Offline
Operator

Registered: Thu Oct 17 2002
Posts: 4132
Loc: Various
Depth perception IS required for CCT based on JTAC qualification. This from CMSgt HY at AETC...glad the question was asked so it could be cleared up.

I'll try to update the fact sheet ASAP.
_________________________
TE
Pararescueman (Ret)/Webmaster/Administrator/RKC
The real test comes when all strength has fled, and men must produce victory on will alone...

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#50563 - Wed Jun 03 2009 14:08 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: TE]
Keihas Offline
New Member

Registered: Sat Sep 10 2005
Posts: 28
Loc: Hurlburt Field
I just enlisted today and they said that Depth Perception was no longer required for Combat Control. My recruiter is going to submit my PAST results and book me for CCT.

I knew I had failed Depth Perception and I read this thread saying it was required. Needless to say, I was definitely stressing out about whether I would be able to book a CCT job. I even bought a "Magic Eye" book and spent some time with it incase I should have to try and retake the test.

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#50564 - Wed Jun 03 2009 16:23 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: Keihas]
TE Offline
Operator

Registered: Thu Oct 17 2002
Posts: 4132
Loc: Various
I'll notify the CCT careerfield manager that this is happening...according to him, depth perception IS required for CCT as stated above in this thread. And according to the medical AFI dated Jun 06, depth perception is required for CCT...I've seen no messages or interim changes that state otherwise. I've gone over the AF aerospace medical services website and have seen nothing changing this.

I'd be curious as to the documentation the MEPS docs and/or recruiters are using that says depth perception is not required for CCT.

_________________________
TE
Pararescueman (Ret)/Webmaster/Administrator/RKC
The real test comes when all strength has fled, and men must produce victory on will alone...

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#50570 - Wed Jun 03 2009 21:21 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: TE]
Keihas Offline
New Member

Registered: Sat Sep 10 2005
Posts: 28
Loc: Hurlburt Field
Hmm... I haven't seen CCT on an offical contract yet, so hopefully I am not being set up for major disappointment.

Apparently, the last thing I still need to go through is a phone interview with a Combat Controller early next week. I'll post an update after that.

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#50683 - Mon Jun 15 2009 16:27 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: Keihas]
Keihas Offline
New Member

Registered: Sat Sep 10 2005
Posts: 28
Loc: Hurlburt Field
My recruiter booked me for Combat Control finally. My ship date for basic is November 24th 2009. 5 months seems like a long time right now, but I've waited this long through the process...

I am still a bit nervous about this miscommunication regarding the depth perception requirement. My recruiter and my recruiter's boss have both confirmed that depth perception is no longer required. They said that it is a new change and all the old documentation still lists it as a requirement, even though it isn't anymore.

Do you recommend a course of action on my part? Should I ask to see a draft of my final contract? When can I breathe easy knowing my CCT slot is secure?

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#50684 - Mon Jun 15 2009 17:12 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: Keihas]
TE Offline
Operator

Registered: Thu Oct 17 2002
Posts: 4132
Loc: Various
This is what I received from the AETC Surgeon General, via the PJ Functional Manager:

In general, the following types of eye surgeries are waiverable on a case by case evaluation after 12 months of post-op without complications:

PRK, LASEK, Epi-LASEK, WFG-PRK, LASIK, WFG-LASIK,

The following vision requirements are generally not waiverable:

Myopia < -8.00

Hyperopia < +0.50

Astigmatism < 3.00

Anisometropia < 2.50

Uncorrected Vision Far 20/200

Corrected to 20/20

Uncorrected Near Vision 20/50

Corrected to 20/20

Normal Color Vision

Normal Depth Perception


AFI 48-123 Vol 3, Chap 1.3
AFI 48-123 Vol 2, Atch 2
AFI Vol 3, Atch 5 5.2, 5.3, 5.4, 5.6, 5.8

I would ask your recruiter and his boss where they are getting their information, as it appears it is different from AETC and both the CCT functional manager and PJ functional manager. Additional confirmation that DP is required comes from the Special Tactics recruiting liaison.

_________________________
TE
Pararescueman (Ret)/Webmaster/Administrator/RKC
The real test comes when all strength has fled, and men must produce victory on will alone...

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#50685 - Mon Jun 15 2009 20:39 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: TE]
TheRedBaron Offline
New Member

Registered: Mon Mar 13 2006
Posts: 46
Loc: PIPE
Dang TE sounds like I should just go to a AF recruiter or just put the package in anyways.
_________________________
Team FORREST

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#50699 - Wed Jun 17 2009 07:30 AM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: TheRedBaron]
strader01 Offline
New Member

Registered: Fri Nov 21 2008
Posts: 2
I had failed my original depth perception test at meps then found a local eye doctor that performed vision therapy. VT is kind of expensive if you don't have vision insurance but if you want to improve your depth perception it can really help. During my class III I passed the depth perception with flying colors.

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#50704 - Wed Jun 17 2009 10:30 AM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: strader01]
TheRedBaron Offline
New Member

Registered: Mon Mar 13 2006
Posts: 46
Loc: PIPE
Yea i looked into Vision Therapy but unfortunately the AF doesnt cover that or offer it. Its 4 grand.
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Team FORREST

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#50731 - Thu Jun 18 2009 17:39 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: TheRedBaron]
Keihas Offline
New Member

Registered: Sat Sep 10 2005
Posts: 28
Loc: Hurlburt Field
Ok, I asked my recruiter and here is the documentation I was given supposedly showing that depth perception isn't required. I can't really make heads or tails of it though.
==============================
Thu Jun 18 14:10:15PM 2009

PERSONAL DATA - PRIVACY ACT OF 1974 (USC 552a)
J O B B A N K P R E R E Q U I S I T E S

EAA: G43 JOB AFSC: -1C231 JOB NAME: -1C231.USAF.EM.CLASS.1

EDUCATION LEVEL
ALGEBRA N ACROPHOBIA N NO PEACE CORPS N
TRIGONOMETRY N CLAUSTROPHOBIA N VALID DRIVER'S LICENSE N
GEOMETRY N ENTOMOPHOBIA N
BIOLOGY N FEAR OF BLOOD N MINIMUM HEIGHT 64
PHYSICS N FEAR OF CONFINED SPACES N MINIMUM WEIGHT
CHEMISTRY N FEAR OF FIRE N FINGERS
ENGLISH N FEAR OF GUNS Y NO ALIEN STATUS Y
TYPING N FEAR OF HEIGHTS N SENSITIVE JOB CODE B
PYROPHOBIA N

SPECIAL QUALS REQ'D
DEPTH OVER 17 YEARS OLD 00
SPECIAL TESTS / SCORE
COLOR VISION Y COMBAT EXCLUSION AFSC M 1 EDPT 000
CORRECTABLE ALLOWED 2 DLAB RQMT
AIDED VISUAL ACTIVITY 0 PHYSICAL TYPE N
UNAIDED VISUAL ACTIVITY 0 P MAJ OFFENSE CONV
VISION CORRECTION TYPE 0 V THEFT CONVICTION
SOFT CONTACTS WITHOUT PROBLEMS NON MINOR CONVICTION
CORR DISTANT VISION LEFT 20 P U L H E S X CIV COURT CONFINEMENT
CORR DISTANT VISION RIGHT 20 1 1 1 1 1 1 K
CORR NEAR VISION LEFT 20
CORR NEAR VISION RIGHT 20 SPEECH IMPEDIMENT Y APTITUDE AREA: G
UNCORR DISTANT VISION LEFT 200 SPEECH ABILITY 2 MINIMUM SCORE: 44
UNCORR DISTANT VISION RIGHT 100 EMOTIONAL INSTABILITY Y AQE INDICATOR: 0 UNCORR NEAR VISION LEFT 0 TMJ DISORDER
UNCORR NEAR VISION RIGHT 0

'N' MEANS ITEM DOES NOT APPLY
'Y' MEANS ITEM IS A REQUIREMENT OR A DISQUALIFYING FACTOR
ALL OTHER ENTRIES ARE MINIMUM REQUIRED VALUES

ROPRM4 - PAGE: 1 OF 1 -


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#50732 - Thu Jun 18 2009 22:36 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: Keihas]
Bsjkg87 Offline
New Member

Registered: Thu Feb 07 2008
Posts: 96
I'll be dealing with the DP and Class III on Monday. I guess all I can do is pay attention to what I am supposed to do, and take my time. I never had a problem catching a baseball, or predicting where a thrown object was going...hopefully the test isn't difficult if you never had one in a while. Last time my eyes were checked was about 8 years ago, and they never changed...think I have 20/40. Can't be any worse than that.

I'll post whatever information they tell me and give me to help you all out but it looks like you have it pretty much covered.

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#50735 - Fri Jun 19 2009 07:04 AM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: Bsjkg87]
TE Offline
Operator

Registered: Thu Oct 17 2002
Posts: 4132
Loc: Various
The guidance in the system now will soon be updated to reflect the DP requirement...not sure of the timeline, but it will be pretty quick.
_________________________
TE
Pararescueman (Ret)/Webmaster/Administrator/RKC
The real test comes when all strength has fled, and men must produce victory on will alone...

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#50737 - Fri Jun 19 2009 10:42 AM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: TE]
Bsjkg87 Offline
New Member

Registered: Thu Feb 07 2008
Posts: 96
So your can get the job contract, but will they come back after you and make you take DP? Or just a few "lucky" guys got in at the right time...?

Thanks for the update TE.

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#50738 - Fri Jun 19 2009 11:29 AM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: Bsjkg87]
TE Offline
Operator

Registered: Thu Oct 17 2002
Posts: 4132
Loc: Various
No guarantees, but they likely won't come after you for DP. The requirement is for the JTAC qualification so it may prevent you from getting that qualification...but you may be able to get the vision therapy talked about earlier...no guarantees there either since it's not currently covered by Tricare...clear as mud I know...
_________________________
TE
Pararescueman (Ret)/Webmaster/Administrator/RKC
The real test comes when all strength has fled, and men must produce victory on will alone...

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#50743 - Sat Jun 20 2009 00:43 AM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: TE]
Bsjkg87 Offline
New Member

Registered: Thu Feb 07 2008
Posts: 96
Thanks for the insight TE, and for taking the time to find out what you did. When I get done with the Class III, I'll try to shed some light for those worried about the testing...if it doesn't violate anything. I know there were older documents to use as examples, but as for as what tools are used and how the testing is conducted I think a lot of guys who have some time to wait before they can go get their CIII's are curious what all is involved.

Thanks again.

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#50752 - Sun Jun 21 2009 18:18 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: Bsjkg87]
TheRoad64 Offline
Operator

Registered: Fri Oct 17 2008
Posts: 163
Loc: Bragg
I was worried about it, but took it the other day by requesting it at the med group. Take your time. I stared at stereograms in an attempt to train my eyes to recognize it. Not sure if it helped, but I failed DP in MEPS, and blew it away the other day.

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#50763 - Tue Jun 23 2009 10:29 AM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: TheRoad64]
strader01 Offline
New Member

Registered: Fri Nov 21 2008
Posts: 2
$4000? That's crazy. You should try looking around. The vision therapy place I went to charged $100 per visit. For Me it took about 16 visits. You can probably get it done in less visits if cost is a deal breaker. I would not start of with sterograms if you have poor depth perception. In VT the will probably start you off with something called a lifesaver chart. It's all about training your eyes to work together.

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#50765 - Tue Jun 23 2009 11:41 AM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: strader01]
Keihas Offline
New Member

Registered: Sat Sep 10 2005
Posts: 28
Loc: Hurlburt Field
So after talking with my recuiter, it sounds like the rules that the Functional are looking at, and the rules regarding recruitment are somehow different. Due to this difference, I lucked out and was able to get a CCT slot despite failing DP at MEPS. It also appears that if the regs are changed now, my slot will be 'grandfathered' in.

The one concern is that I might get tested again on DP during my flight physical. Just so I know when to expect it: When during the pipeline do Combat Control Trainees get tested for their class III flight physicals?

Also; TheRoad64, you said you stared at stereograms to help you. What kind were you looking at? Are those the same thing as the 'Magic Eye'designs?

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#51608 - Fri Sep 25 2009 15:00 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: Keihas]
TheRedBaron Offline
New Member

Registered: Mon Mar 13 2006
Posts: 46
Loc: PIPE
Had a few Vision Therapy sessions and was able to pass the Depth perception test. Now just waiting on the rest of the FCIII
_________________________
Team FORREST

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#51609 - Fri Sep 25 2009 17:45 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: Keihas]
TheRoad64 Offline
Operator

Registered: Fri Oct 17 2008
Posts: 163
Loc: Bragg
Originally Posted By: Keihas
So after talking with my recuiter, it sounds like the rules that the Functional are looking at, and the rules regarding recruitment are somehow different. Due to this difference, I lucked out and was able to get a CCT slot despite failing DP at MEPS. It also appears that if the regs are changed now, my slot will be 'grandfathered' in.

The one concern is that I might get tested again on DP during my flight physical. Just so I know when to expect it: When during the pipeline do Combat Control Trainees get tested for their class III flight physicals?

Also; TheRoad64, you said you stared at stereograms to help you. What kind were you looking at? Are those the same thing as the 'Magic Eye'designs?


These.

http://www.eyetricks.com/3dstereo.htm

I don't know that they worked. But I passed DP wink

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#51616 - Sat Sep 26 2009 09:54 AM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: TheRoad64]
Bosco Offline
Operator

Registered: Mon Jun 27 2005
Posts: 86
Loc: North Carolina
DP will probably be tested at least two more times: once in basic for your physical there, and again at STTS (AST) when you get your class III.
_________________________
Bosco

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#51662 - Thu Oct 01 2009 16:55 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: Bosco]
rwill091 Offline
New Member

Registered: Thu May 28 2009
Posts: 4
Have they changed it back to DP is required to go CCT? Or can you still get in with failing it at MEPS?

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#51710 - Mon Oct 05 2009 16:40 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: rwill091]
Guard MC Offline
Operator

Registered: Sat Aug 09 2003
Posts: 1865
Loc: Louisville, Ky STS
The official requirements sheet that I have says depth perception is required for CCT. I just took my annual flight physical and I was tested again as well.
_________________________
Guard MC

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#51799 - Tue Oct 13 2009 18:50 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: Guard MC]
Guard MC Offline
Operator

Registered: Sat Aug 09 2003
Posts: 1865
Loc: Louisville, Ky STS
We had a Trainee who failed the test at MEPS but passed it at his civilain Optometrist. Our Medical Squadron submitted the civilai test along with his Class III Physical as evidence that while he failed the USAF Test, he did actually have acceptable depth perception. It took an extra couple of months to get the test, do all the paperwork, and get acceptance from Air Education and Training Command (AETC), but his Physical was eventually approved by AETC.
_________________________
Guard MC

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#51989 - Mon Nov 02 2009 20:13 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: TE]
Brettk Offline
New Member

Registered: Fri Oct 02 2009
Posts: 17
Originally Posted By: TE
The guidance in the system now will soon be updated to reflect the DP requirement.
Im confused, I dont see the point in being able to get a GTEP CCT contract right now but then when you get to basic and re-take the DP test and fail, you have to pick another job?

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#51999 - Tue Nov 03 2009 18:32 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: Brettk]
Guard MC Offline
Operator

Registered: Sat Aug 09 2003
Posts: 1865
Loc: Louisville, Ky STS
It is just a loop hole that will soon close. You are correct, there is no point in getting a GTEP slot when you don't meet the standard. On the other hand, if you have a GTEP slot and fail at BMT, it is more incentive for the USAF to send you to an Air Force Optometrist to see if you pass other depth perception tests.
_________________________
Guard MC

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#52020 - Thu Nov 05 2009 11:41 AM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: Guard MC]
Brettk Offline
New Member

Registered: Fri Oct 02 2009
Posts: 17
Originally Posted By: Guard MC
It is just a loop hole that will soon close. You are correct, there is no point in getting a GTEP slot when you don't meet the standard. On the other hand, if you have a GTEP slot and fail at BMT, it is more incentive for the USAF to send you to an Air Force Optometrist to see if you pass other depth perception tests.
I am one of the people that got a GTEP but failed DP, the meps recruiter told me DP is only required for PJ. I ship Dec 28, I know that i have depth perception i played baseball for years. The doctors at meps told me the DP test at basic is alot easier than the bogus one they have at meps, so we'll see.

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#52023 - Thu Nov 05 2009 20:33 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: Brettk]
Guard MC Offline
Operator

Registered: Sat Aug 09 2003
Posts: 1865
Loc: Louisville, Ky STS
Good luck. And your Recruiter has it backwards, PJs don't require depth perception, CCT does.
_________________________
Guard MC

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#52423 - Sun Dec 20 2009 10:55 AM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: Brettk]
Keihas Offline
New Member

Registered: Sat Sep 10 2005
Posts: 28
Loc: Hurlburt Field
The Doctors are somewhat correct. I failed the DP test at MEPS, but when I got my Flight III physical during second week of basic I passed it. The test is pretty much the same, only the machine isn't as beat up and they don't try and rush you so much. I just took my time and got it right, the magic eye books I spent a couple weeks looking at between MEPS and BMT might have helped. Just know that you WILL have to pass it during BMT. One member of my flight did not, even after several attempts, and got reclassed.

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#52574 - Sun Jan 10 2010 18:09 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: Keihas]
DantheGuy Offline
New Member

Registered: Sat Aug 20 2005
Posts: 11
Loc: Macdill AFB, Tampa, Fl
How is PJ's get a by on depth perception from a flight physical?

Let me explain why I ask this question.

I'm the Air NCO for my squadron JCSE, at Macdill AFB. Were an Airborne Unit. I have a jumper that just got DNIF'd because he didn't pass the Depth Perception test.

We are just Air Force Comm guys, and the lowest form of jumpers. Were nobody special and follow Field Manual 3-21.220. as the joke goes. "how do you spell joint? A.R.M.Y."

If there is a way to get PJ's a classIII Flight Physical with out depth Perception. Can somebody tell me how that is, So I can get my Jumper back on Status?

I know this is a lil off topic. But this particular jumper was wanting to go PJ but believes all doors are closed now? any help would be much appreciated.

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#52575 - Sun Jan 10 2010 21:09 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: DantheGuy]
Yukon Online
Operator

Registered: Wed Mar 14 2001
Posts: 2057
Loc: Anchorage AK, USA
Originally Posted By: DantheGuy
How is PJ's get a by on depth perception from a flight physical?
As best as I can tell from AFI 48-123 and AFPAM 48-133 both PJs and CCT must meet the same vision standards including depth perception when tested during MEPS medical examination and when tested during initial CCT/PJ (FC III and marine diving duty) medical examination.

Failure on initial screening during MEPS medical examination screening or the initial CCT/PJ (FC III and marine diving duty) medical examination requires a full optometry or ophthalmology evaluation. It is the waiverable baseline that is difficult to nail down as it is the possible/potential underlying medical condition that is causing the defective depth perception that is the concern.

“The failure is a failure of the test and does not define a condition or give a diagnosis. The failure can be due to microtropia, monofixation syndrome, a cranial nerve palsy, brain tumor, retinal disease, ocular mortility, disorders, etc.” The depth perception test is a screening tool used to see if other tests are needed to find a potentially serious medical condition.

Generally a failure caused only by a refective error where the person only needs to wear correction to meet the DP standards. Meeting DP standards with required wear of correction devices (glasses/contacts)is potentially can be qualified without needing a waiver. It's the other bad stuff they might find that one needs to worry about.

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#52593 - Tue Jan 12 2010 19:57 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: Yukon]
DantheGuy Offline
New Member

Registered: Sat Aug 20 2005
Posts: 11
Loc: Macdill AFB, Tampa, Fl
Yukon,
Thanks for the reply.

Not gonna lie, first time I read your post I almost felt like telling my guy he had a brain tumor... But I understand that the failure can be caused by many things, and we need to figure out what it is. Like my paratooper said jokingly about static line jumping "its not like im gonna miss the ground, It'll find me". Hopefully we can get him fixed or waivered. Get him jumping again and reopen some doors for his future.

Thanks again.

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#52595 - Wed Jan 13 2010 07:57 AM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: DantheGuy]
Yukon Online
Operator

Registered: Wed Mar 14 2001
Posts: 2057
Loc: Anchorage AK, USA
I've been doing considerable resarch on the Depth Perception test and requirement. I've asked some specific questions to functionals through TE and have not gotten any answers yet.

However:
Quote:
AFPAM48-133 PHYSICIAL EXAMINATION TECHNIQUES, Table 10.1, item 33:

Failure on initial screening requires a full optometry or ophthalmology evaluation, to include: ductions, versions, cover
test and alternate cover test in primary and six cardinal positions of gaze, AO Vectograph Stereopsis Test at six meters, AO Suppression Test at six meters, Randot Stereopsis Test, and 4 Diopter Base out Prism Test at six meters. These tests are designed to identify motility disorders, particularly
microtropias and monofixation.

New failure of screening when previously passed requires optometry or ophthalmology evaluation to rule out correctable causes, such as refractive error, anisometropia, or macular disease. If member has previously failed VTA-ND and passed the near stereopsis test (DPA-V or Randot), no further work-up is required.


Note also this pamphlet also discloses "10.1.3.7. G = Initial CCT/PJ (FCIII + Marine Diving Duty)" which clearly and concisely indicates PJ and CCT get the exact same medical examination.

The other info I provided was from other sources which included an article published by a AETC/SG flight surgeon who did approvals for initial flyer class exams at AETC. That article however focused mostly on FCIII and FCII Depth perception requirements and not specifically PJ and CCT which is why I asked some questions myself.

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#52840 - Sun Feb 07 2010 06:16 AM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: Bsjkg87]
349RCS Offline
New Member

Registered: Sat Jan 09 2010
Posts: 2
Loc: Oklahoma
I understand this has been circulating for some time. Base on AFIs and MILPDS which recruiting using to book jobs. Color Vision is needed, Depth Perception not needed for PJ,CCT. Based on the Medical Regulation in the class 3 flight physical requirements is also not needed. However, to get JTAC certified it is needed. Trust me, we have been working this issue for the last several months to get clarified on this issue.
_________________________
Mark E. Terry
349 RCS/RST
405-274-9990

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#52841 - Sun Feb 07 2010 08:27 AM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: 349RCS]
Yukon Online
Operator

Registered: Wed Mar 14 2001
Posts: 2057
Loc: Anchorage AK, USA
Best improve your reading comprehension and research skills. I can find nothing that differs the PJ/CTT requirement of "defective depth perception is disqualifying" from "is considered disqualifying if the failure occurs with best corrected visual acuity regardless of level of uncorrected visual acuity." The requirement for PJ CTT is to pass Depth perception test without or with corrective (glasses/contacts) accuity and have at or better than 20/70 uncorrected vision, correctable to 20/20 each eye.

1. There is nothing that distinguishes the mandatory Depth Perception requirement of normal depth perception needed to perform JTAC duties from the normal depth perception needed to perform CCT or Pararescue duties other than CCT and PJ are an occupation classification to reserve or book a job against.

2. Not all TACP, ALOs, CCT, STO members obtain and sustain JTAC qualifications and perform JTAC duties.

3. The experience and skill level requirements for eligibility to attend the JTAC qualification course distinctly and clearly states enlisted must possess 5-skill level in specific Air Force specialties of 1C2X1 or 1C4X1 and possess 1 year operational experience.

4. JTAC is nothing that concerns Air Force recruiters as it is not an enlisted or officer occupation classification to reserve or book a job against, so I don't know how or why JTAC duties was introduced into the conversation.

Quote:
Reference: AFI13-112V1, 15 FEBRUARY 2008, JOINT TERMINAL ATTACK CONTROLLER (JTAC) TRAINING PROGRAM , Table 1. 1 - Personnel Authorized to Perform JTAC Duties:

Individuals who lack normal color vision or depth perception IAW AFI 48-123, Medical Examinations and Standards.


AND

Quote:
Reference: AFI 48-123, 24 September 2009, Medical Examinations and Standards

6.46.7. Depth Perception. No standard except for career fields below:

6.46.7.1. Tactical Air Control Party (1C4X1), Air Liaison Officer (13LX). Failure of either the Vision Test Apparatus (VTA-DP), or its newer replacement, the OVT is considered disqualifying if the failure occurs with best corrected visual acuity regardless of level of uncorrected visual acuity.

6.46.7.2. Failure of the VTA or OVT stereopsis testing requires completion of a local preliminary ocular motility and macular examination by an ophthalmologist or optometrist, and review by both AETC and the ACS. The testing must be accomplished as listed in 6.44.11.1.1
...
Section 6I— Ground Based Aircraft Controller
6.46. Ground Based Aircraft Controller Medical Standards. The standards in Section 6I apply to all ground based aircraft controllers which includes air traffic controller, weapons controllers/directors, combat controllers and Aerospace Control and Warning Systems (1C5X1), Tactical Air Control Party (1C4X1), Air Liaison Officer (13LX) and UAS sensor operators (1UOX1). Conditions in Chapter 5, Continued Military Service (Retention Standards) also apply. For conditions listed in Chapter 5, ensure an MEB has been performed and final disposition made prior to submission of a waiver request. Combat Controllers must meet the FC III requirements in Section 6G and the parachute duty requirements in Section 6K (6.48.2.) Air Battle Managers, Air Weapons Controllers/Directors, and Airborne sensor operators required to perform frequent and regular aerial flights must also meet Flying Class III standards in Section 6G. Pararescuemen must also meet standards in Section 6K. The medical conditions listed in Chapter 5, Section 6G and Section 6K are cause to reject an examinee for initial controller duty or continued duty unless a waiver is granted. Acute medical problems, injuries, or their appropriate therapy are cause for withholding certification of initial training or temporarily restricting the individual from controller duties until the problem is resolved. These standards are not all inclusive, and other diseases, or defects, can be cause for rejection based upon the medical judgment of the examining flight surgeon. Acute conditions which impair safe and effective performance of duty are cause for temporary removal from controlling duties using AF Form 1042, Medical Recommendation for Flying or Special Operational Duty, IAW Section 6C. Note: These standards do not apply to: Small unmanned aircraft systems operators (SUAS-Os). (See Section 6K 6.48.11.).
...
6.48.4. Marine Diving Duty (Pararescue and Combat Control Duty).
...
6.48.4.1. The following conditions are disqualifying:
...
6.48.4.2. Defective Depth Perception.


AND

Quote:
Reference AFPAM 48-133, 1 June 2000, Physical Exam Techniques:

Identifies the following legends (and others) pertinent to this discussion as to what examination item has a mandatory required entry item to be completed.

10.1.3.3. C = Initial Flying Class I/IA, II, III/US Service Academies
10.1.3.4. D = Periodic Flying/Nonflying (Personnel reporting to UFT and ARC members only IAW AFI 48-123)
10.1.3.6. F = Initial Ground Based Controller Duty
10.1.3.7. G = Initial CCT/PJ (FCIII + Marine Diving Duty)

Table 10.1. Medical Examination Accomplishment and Recording Standard Form 88, Report of Medical Examination item 34 identifies C, D, F, G must have a depth perception test recorded.


Unfortunately AFPAM 48-133 and AFI 48-123 do not identify a normal depth perception standard other than passing with correction once a full optometry or ophthalmology evaluation has been done is a pass.

The depth perception test "Pass" standard without correction or with correction is the same for C, D, F, G. Nobody at AETC/SG or other MAJCOM SG has provided me any documentation or opinion that asserts, suggests, infers, or implies otherwise.

Also note:
Quote:
Reference AFECD, 31 January 2010, TACTICAL AIR CONTROL PARTY (TACP)(Effective 28 Sep 09):

3.5.2. For entry, award and retention of AFSCs 1C411/31/51/71/91/00:

3.5.2.1 Compliance with the medical standards for Ground Based Controller Duty as defined in AFI 48-123, Medical Examinations and Standards.
...
3.5.3.1. For personnel certified as a JTAC, regardless of skill level, permanent JTAC decertification IAW AFI 13-112, Volume 2, will result in removal from the 1C4XX AFSC.


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#53684 - Mon Apr 12 2010 08:53 AM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: Yukon]
TE Offline
Operator

Registered: Thu Oct 17 2002
Posts: 4132
Loc: Various
From the CCT FAMs:

Depth perception is no longer a requirement for CCT. It was not a requirement for ATC and we went back and forth for CCT--Chief CW finally just had it removed.
_________________________
TE
Pararescueman (Ret)/Webmaster/Administrator/RKC
The real test comes when all strength has fled, and men must produce victory on will alone...

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#53737 - Thu Apr 15 2010 08:23 AM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: TE]
usmcCCTwnb Offline
New Member

Registered: Tue Apr 13 2010
Posts: 6
Loc: Georgia
Sorry for asking but you are saying depth perception is no longer a requirement for cct? If this is true I am ecstatic as I thought I was screwed being that I have about 75% of my depth perception and was real down looking for waivers or other oppurtunities.

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#53738 - Thu Apr 15 2010 08:39 AM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: usmcCCTwnb]
TE Offline
Operator

Registered: Thu Oct 17 2002
Posts: 4132
Loc: Various
That is what the CCT Functional Managers are saying (the decision makers, coordinated through SG)...DP is no longer a requirement for CCT...you will of course be tested on it though.
_________________________
TE
Pararescueman (Ret)/Webmaster/Administrator/RKC
The real test comes when all strength has fled, and men must produce victory on will alone...

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#53739 - Thu Apr 15 2010 08:51 AM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: TE]
usmcCCTwnb Offline
New Member

Registered: Tue Apr 13 2010
Posts: 6
Loc: Georgia
Outstanding you have made my day and thanks for the quick response. This board is great for getting to the bottom of things with all the information that is out there you really help to sift through it.

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#53747 - Thu Apr 15 2010 13:28 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: usmcCCTwnb]
Yukon Online
Operator

Registered: Wed Mar 14 2001
Posts: 2057
Loc: Anchorage AK, USA
Originally Posted By: usmcCCTwnb
Sorry for asking but you are saying depth perception is no longer a requirement for cct? If this is true I am ecstatic as I thought I was screwed being that I have about 75% of my depth perception and was real down looking for waivers or other oppurtunities.
Even people totally blind in one eye with good vision in the remaining eye can have adequate depth perception.

The pass/fail depth perception test used by DOD has never measured adequate ability for performing any AFSC specific duties or tasks, its purpose has always focused on abnormal depth perception is a potential symptom of other possible disqualifying medical conditions that must be tested for and ruled out.
Originally Posted By: TE
...DP is no longer a requirement for CCT...you will of course be tested on it though.

Consequently although normal Depth Perception is no longer required (the impairment base-line for performing duties and specific tasks has never been established for depth perception) it appears the DP test is still administered and a pass/fail of the test still exists.

Consequently your disclosure of having only 75% of depth perception is useless information without the cause for this abnormal depth perception being disclosed. The 75% may provide adequate depth/distance perception ability, or not. However, if you are missing an eye or are totally blind in one eye, the medical disqualifier cause will be not meeting the visual acuity standard of 20/70 uncorrected vision, correctable to 20/20 each eye rather than abnormal depth perception.

Depth perception ability becomes significantly inadequate with 20/20 to 20/40 in one eye and 20/200 or worse in the other eye. Depth perception deteriorates differently for each person’s acuity but the connection is included in the maximum vision acuity waiver standards- 20/100 both eyes corrected to 20/20, or 20/200 worse eye-20/70 better eye, corrected to 20/20 both eyes).

Abnormal depth perception is not the same as lack of adequate depth/distance perception (reduced to the point it impairs ability to perform duties or required performance tasks). Failure of the Depth Perception test has never been a diagnosis of an impaired distance/depth discerning ability hindering or obstructing ability to perform, the DP test failure is nothing more than a possibility indicator a potential undiagnosed or developing asymptomatic condition or an intentionally being hidden from the medical examiner medical problem existing that must be ruled out.

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#53749 - Thu Apr 15 2010 15:10 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: Yukon]
usmcCCTwnb Offline
New Member

Registered: Tue Apr 13 2010
Posts: 6
Loc: Georgia
I have strabismus but I have 20/15 vision both eyes, I was worried about the depth perception mainly...but is strabismus a disqualifier as I am prior service Marine Corps Infantry and it is all documented with the DOD in my records? As always thankyou for the information!

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