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#52394 - Fri Dec 18 2009 10:13 AM Depth Perception
Embracethesuck Offline
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Registered: Tue Aug 28 2007
Posts: 24
So I am currently in the process of trying to retrain into the career field. I failed my depth perception test while doing my class 3 here at moody and its now holding up my physical. I am either going to have to retry the OVT with glasses or go through the process of getting a waiver. However, this is my second attempt at the career field as I originally enlisted for it and attended the indoc course having failed depth perception then and was still alllowed to go. My question is everywhere I look online it says it is not a requirement for PJ and I saw a official document on here from 2002 saying it was not on this website. Does anybody know if there is anything more current than that or if the policy has officially changed? I would really like to avoid a longer wait on a waiver. We spent time going through the 48-123 because the docs were confused on why you would not need it to enlist in the career field but it is a requirement for an air force class 3 exam. The 48-123 said it was a requirement for marine diving duty. If anybody knows anything to help please let me know. Thank you

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#52395 - Fri Dec 18 2009 10:43 AM Re: Depth Perception [Re: Embracethesuck]
Yukon Online

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Registered: Wed Mar 14 2001
Posts: 1288
Loc: Anchorage AK, USA
Originally Posted By: Embracethesuck
We spent time going through the 48-123 because the docs were confused on why you would not need it to enlist in the career field but it is a requirement for an air force class 3 exam. The 48-123 said it was a requirement for marine diving duty. If anybody knows anything to help please let me know. Thank you
Who is we?

1. AFI 48-123, MEDICAL EXAMINATIONS AND STANDARDS, SEPTEMBER 2009, Attachment 2 CERTIFICATION & WAIVER AUTHORITY, Table A2.1. Certification & Waiver Authority, Note 12. HQ AETC/SGPS is sole certification and waiver authority for applicants applying for the Combat Control, Combat Rescue Officer or Pararescue Duty career fields.

2. AFI 48-123, MEDICAL EXAMINATIONS AND STANDARDS, SEPTEMBER 2009, Attachment 2 CERTIFICATION & WAIVER AUTHORITY, Table A2.1. Certification & Waiver Authority, Note 7. Non-rated applicants for flying duty (Class III) and Flight Nurse applicants, who are currently medically qualified and performing flying duty, do not require additional review and certification or reexamination prior to retraining unless the individual is applying for Inflight Refueling Duty, Combat Control Duty, Pararescue Duty, Combat Rescue Officer, or the individual is on a medical waiver. Note: Enlisted members applying for commissioning may use their most current PHA and completed AF Form 422 noting qualified for GMS, Commission and Retention, in lieu of accomplishing another physical for the specific purpose of commissioning. A current AF Form 422 must accompany all cross-training applications.

3. AFI 48-123, MEDICAL EXAMINATIONS AND STANDARDS, SEPTEMBER 2009, 6.48.4. Marine Diving Duty (Pararescue and Combat Control Duty). The medical standards are those for Flying Class III plus those here and those listed in 6.48.3 Failure to meet standards is cause to reject an examinee for initial Marine Diving duty and for continued duty unless a waiver is granted. Acute medical problems, injuries, or their appropriate therapy may be cause for withholding certification for initial training or temporarily restricting from duty until the problem is resolved.

4. AFI 48-123, MEDICAL EXAMINATIONS AND STANDARDS, SEPTEMBER 2009, 6.44.11.2. For FC III, the requirement for normal depth perception is AFSC specific as stated in the classification guide per the career field manager. Failure of either the Vision Test Apparatus (VTA-DP), or its newer replacement, the OVT is considered disqualifying if the failure occurs with best corrected visual acuity regardless of level of uncorrected visual acuity.

5. AFI 48-123, MEDICAL EXAMINATIONS AND STANDARDS, SEPTEMBER 2009, 6.44.11.2.2. All will be tested. All IFCIII physicals are required to have depth perception results recorded even if a specific AFSC does not require the standard to qualify for a particular career field.

6. AFI 48-123, MEDICAL EXAMINATIONS AND STANDARDS, SEPTEMBER 2009, 6.48.2.2. Military Free Fall, High Altitude-Low Opening (HALO), Jump Master, Pararescue (PJ), Combat Control Team (CCT), CRO, Special Tactics Officer (STO) Duties. These individuals must meet initial selection for Free Fall parachute training as listed in AR 40-501 or Navy Physical Examination and Standards Article 15-102. In addition, PJ, CCT, CRO, STO must meet Air Force requirements listed in 6.48.3 which must be documented on the DD Form 2808 or SF 88. Initial certification and waiver authority is retained by AETC/SGPS.

Please note list item 4 stating “For FC III, the requirement for normal depth perception is AFSC specific as stated in the classification guide per the career field manager.” This is referring to (1) the minimum required PULHES physical profile for award of both Pararescue and CCTAFSCs is minimum required 111111 physical profile identified in the classification guide; and (2) the classification guide for both AFSCs state—(a) For entry, award, and retention of For award and retention of AFSCs 1T231/51/71/91, physical qualification for aircrew, parachute, and marine diving duty according to AFI 48-123, Medical Examination and Standards; or, (b) For entry, award, and retention of AFSCs 1C211/31/51/71, physical qualification for air traffic controller duty, marine diving duty, and parachute duty IAW AFI 48-123, Medical Examinations and Standards.

The reason for ---
AFI 46-123 6.46.7. Depth Perception. No standard except for career fields below:

6.46.7.1. Tactical Air Control Party (1C4X1), Air Liaison Officer (13LX). Failure of either the Vision Test Apparatus (VTA-DP), or its newer replacement, the OVT is considered disqualifying if the failure occurs with best corrected visual acuity regardless of level of uncorrected visual acuity.

---is the classification guide for TACP (1C4) identifies a minimum PULHES physical profile of 11121. Meaning the eye standard is less than a 1 and more importantly there is no AFSC classification requirement for a flying class III medical certification, or certification for Marine diving duty or for airborne or military freefall duty. The requirement identified in the classification guide is “Normal color vision and depth perception as defined in AFI 48-123, Medical Examinations and Standards.”

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#52396 - Fri Dec 18 2009 10:51 AM Re: Depth Perception [Re: Yukon]
Embracethesuck Offline
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Registered: Tue Aug 28 2007
Posts: 24
Sorry about that, me and the flight surgeon who did my examination.

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#52397 - Fri Dec 18 2009 10:59 AM Re: Depth Perception [Re: Embracethesuck]
Embracethesuck Offline
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Registered: Tue Aug 28 2007
Posts: 24
So I will need a waiver since it is my initial class 3?

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#52399 - Fri Dec 18 2009 11:40 AM Re: Depth Perception [Re: Embracethesuck]
Yukon Online

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Registered: Wed Mar 14 2001
Posts: 1288
Loc: Anchorage AK, USA
See item 1 in my list. A current AF Form 422 must accompany all cross-training applications. AETC/SGPS will be looking at it. Nobody here, to my knowledge, is assigned to or performing duties in AETC/SGPS.

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#52400 - Fri Dec 18 2009 11:53 AM Re: Depth Perception [Re: Yukon]
Embracethesuck Offline
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Registered: Tue Aug 28 2007
Posts: 24
Ok I think I got it now. AETC will decide whether the depth perception requirement is waiverable or not. Not flight medicine or ACC.

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#52401 - Fri Dec 18 2009 12:41 PM Re: Depth Perception [Re: Embracethesuck]
Yukon Online

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Registered: Wed Mar 14 2001
Posts: 1288
Loc: Anchorage AK, USA
AF Form 422 is titled Notification of Air Force Member’s Qualification Status.

If less than normal binocular depth perception (stereo acuity) is worse than what a MAJCOM/SGP(S)--flight medicine office--flight surgeon will waiver for a Flying Class III, it is extremely unlikely AETC/SGPS will waiver a disqualifying flying class III depth perception condition with the additional examination standards imposed for being medically qualified to perform military HALO and marine diving duties.

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#52402 - Fri Dec 18 2009 13:00 PM Re: Depth Perception [Re: Yukon]
TheRedBaron Offline
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Registered: Mon Mar 13 2006
Posts: 46
Loc: PIPE
Hey i just went through all of this. I eventually passed the OVT. It was stated to me that lack of depth perception is non waiverable for jobs that require scanner duties which include:PJ,CCT,TACP,IN-Flight refueling, aerial gunners etc. It sucks just keep trying to pass it. If the opthamologist hasnt done the battery of stereo tests that follow an OVT failure look into that. The tests are all in the AFI.
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#52403 - Fri Dec 18 2009 13:17 PM Re: Depth Perception [Re: TheRedBaron]
Embracethesuck Offline
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Registered: Tue Aug 28 2007
Posts: 24
Yea I had to do another type of depth perception test and passed that one. However that one doest replace the OVT. The Doc is going to have me try again with glasses because he said that could make a difference obviously since I had a slight refraction. If that didn't work then he showed me all the tests I would have to take to qualify for the waiver. My buddy was telling me to keep taking it too and that you can train your eyes to spot it like those pictures you look at as a kid to find the hidden image haha. Whatever it takes.

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#52404 - Fri Dec 18 2009 13:24 PM Re: Depth Perception [Re: Embracethesuck]
TheRedBaron Offline
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Registered: Mon Mar 13 2006
Posts: 46
Loc: PIPE
Exactly. Where there is a will there is a way. find it. Honestly, the circles just look slightly displaced not popping out. Glasses made it easier for me. They relaxed my eyes enough for me to focus. Then once i knew what i was looking for i was able to do the OVT w/out glasses. It also helps to work in the hospital to get to practice.
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#52405 - Fri Dec 18 2009 14:28 PM Re: Depth Perception [Re: TheRedBaron]
Yukon Online

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Registered: Wed Mar 14 2001
Posts: 1288
Loc: Anchorage AK, USA
Originally Posted By: TheRedBaron
Then once i knew what i was looking for i was able to do the OVT w/out glasses. It also helps to work in the hospital to get to practice.
Which means you probably memorized the test plates combinations sufficiently to make the better guess. Not eveybody gets access to frequently practice the test as you did.

This is exactly what you are advocating as the way to pass the depth perception assessment --> Cheat Code Central.

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#52406 - Fri Dec 18 2009 16:03 PM Re: Depth Perception [Re: Yukon]
Embracethesuck Offline
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Registered: Tue Aug 28 2007
Posts: 24
Yea true. Where there is a will there is a way.

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#52407 - Fri Dec 18 2009 17:08 PM Re: Depth Perception [Re: Embracethesuck]
Yukon Online

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Registered: Wed Mar 14 2001
Posts: 1288
Loc: Anchorage AK, USA
Originally Posted By: Embracethesuck
Yea true. Where there is a will there is a way.
Unfortunately the only disclosure made by TheRedBaron is he passed the OVT. There was no disclosure he obtained medical certification with or without medical waiver being medically cleared to perform Pararescue or CCT duties.

There is also matter of exploiting an advantage of performing duties in a medical treatment facility and exploiting opportunity to get extremely familiar with the test to including having access to knowing the correct response being looked for. Most applicants do not have access to this type of practice. This differs considerably from vision therapy designed improve poor depth perception. Without access to the actual depth perception medical record history there is no assurance if passing the test came about honesty or dishonestly. Consequently TheRedBaron’s offering of information becomes example of exactly The cost of Posting Bad Information.

Quote:
Either the Poster pretends to know more than he does, he misinterprets what his Recruiter is telling him/what his situation truly is, or he misrepresents himself or his situation.

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#52408 - Fri Dec 18 2009 17:21 PM Re: Depth Perception [Re: Yukon]
Embracethesuck Offline
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Registered: Tue Aug 28 2007
Posts: 24
I agree with you. If he cheated thats on him im neither the judge nor juror, and I don't have the ability to sit there and look at the test everyday and program it. I was just looking for some guidance as far as what the actual depth perception policy was for the career field I am set on. If it is a requirement then I will everything in my power to accomplish it whether it be alternate tests, waiver, or vision therapy. It will just take a little more time than what I was anticipating. I thank you for your guidance on the AF policy. If anybody else has legitimate input im hear to listen.

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#52418 - Sat Dec 19 2009 15:49 PM Re: Depth Perception [Re: Embracethesuck]
Yukon Online

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Registered: Wed Mar 14 2001
Posts: 1288
Loc: Anchorage AK, USA
Originally Posted By: Embracethesuck
I agree with you. If he cheated thats on him im neither the judge nor juror,
You are correct, it’s on him. However there is a difference between under going risk or overcoming extreme hardship and exploiting an unfair advantage. In this case the paradox is not the exploiting the advantage but inferring it was the compensation needed to pass the test with no counterbalance of connection of how much overall measured of improved ability to discern depth was needed to pass.

What I was disappointed with is none of the disclosure of exploiting an advantage was genuinely concerned with the good useful help to another. Whether intended or not the disclosure fed the misconception of there is a waiver or a way around everything. Although there is disclosure of eventually passing the OVT, there is no disclosure if the possessed uncorrected or corrected ability to discern depth was sufficient without waiver or with waiver of meeting the standard for Pararescue and CCT which is “defective depth perception is disqualifying (Ref AFI 48-123 para 6.48.4.2)”.

I went to the AFIs and provided you the policy. What I did not provide is the overall ability to discern depth being required for Flying Class III and specifically for Pararescue/CCT AFSCs. The required disparity is not concisely written and the waiverable baseline is even less clear in the public domain policies I have access to. The lack of concise standards results from there can be several different causes for less than normal ability to discern depth.

The most common cause of an acquired depth perception defect is uncorrected refractive error (meaning glasses, contacts and eye surgery may correct it). But causes can also be defective ocular muscle balance (meaning exercising the eye may correct it), microtropia, anisometropia and monofixation syndrome. Thus this is reasonable indication of possibility each condition causing abnormal depth perception has a different waiverable base line.

I do know the MEPS standard is: “All Air Force applicants going Class III, air traffic controller, crew member, or commissioning (as well as Navy commissioning physicals) will be tested for depth perception using the OPTEC 2300.”

I do know the MEPS normal depth perception standard (which may not be the Air Force Flying Class III requirement) is “Group B level (having the overall ability to discern depth based on a disparity of 40 seconds of arc)."

I also know FC III aircrew positions exist that require depth perception to safely perform their duties (scanning duties as an example) and the requirement for both Pararescue and CCT AFSC defective depth perception is disqualifying (Ref AFI 48-123 para 6.48.4.2).

I do know from copies of my initial and all annual flight physicals I was tested for the ability to discern depth based on a disparity of at least 25 seconds of arc, all this proves is where the test stopped for me and not what the minimum depth perception requirement for the AFSC was/is.

I do know the potential for false failure is why policy is a practice depth perception test session is given and the examinee does not proceed to the actual test until the practice session is completed and the examiner is confident the examinee actually sees the depth in the top row of the practice session. During the practice session the examiner is even allowed to disclose to the examinee the correct answers. Disclosing the correct answers to the examinee during the actual test is not allowed. The test is discontinued after second cannot correctly identify the answer in group B and on first attempt in any subsequent C, D, etc group. It is my understanding group B measures having the overall ability to discern depth based on a disparity of 40 seconds of arc. Thus there is a practice test and two tested chances to get a pass on the depth perception test, unless the requirement for PJ and CCT is group C, or D.

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#52419 - Sat Dec 19 2009 18:41 PM Re: Depth Perception [Re: Yukon]
initialize Offline
New Member

Registered: Sat Oct 31 2009
Posts: 5
I failed the depth perception test at MEPs and am now in the DEP... am I pretty much screwed if I wanted to become a combat controller? I think I failed because I was given the test by a medical supervisor and he didn't really explain to me what to do. Could I ask my recruiter to get the test retaken by an eye doctor?


Edited by initialize (Sat Dec 19 2009 18:46 PM)

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#52420 - Sun Dec 20 2009 02:40 AM Re: Depth Perception [Re: initialize]
Yukon Online

Operator
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Registered: Wed Mar 14 2001
Posts: 1288
Loc: Anchorage AK, USA
Originally Posted By: initialize
I think I failed because I was given the test by a medical supervisor and he didn't really explain to me what to do.
Unlikely as MEPS has specific instructions on how the examiner is to explain the test. This includes the applicant will first be shown a demonstration device consisting of a transparent plastic plate with four black circles on the rear surface, one in the front. etc, etc. But you can certainly try to convince your recruiter this is why you failed the depth perception test.

I suggest MEPS policy be followed:

"If the applicant fails then subsequently brings in a statement from his physician or optometrist contradicting the MEPS test results and attesting to normal depth perception, the MEPS test will be repeated once."

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#52456 - Tue Dec 22 2009 15:07 PM Re: Depth Perception [Re: Yukon]
TheRedBaron Offline
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Registered: Mon Mar 13 2006
Posts: 46
Loc: PIPE
Sorry if I misled YUKON to believe I cheated. Wow, quick to throw mud for absolutely no reason at all. I didnt even know cheat code central existed but thanks that would have made it a lot easier. You see that last part was a JOKE. And as far as bad posting I answered his question in 1 sentence not half a page. Its white and black there is no grey area for depth perception. But yukon is right he is no judge and i dont know why im so butt hurt over it.
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#52461 - Tue Dec 22 2009 19:35 PM Re: Depth Perception [Re: initialize]
Brettk Offline
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Registered: Fri Oct 02 2009
Posts: 17
Originally Posted By: initialize
I failed the depth perception test at MEPs and am now in the DEP... am I pretty much screwed if I wanted to become a combat controller? I think I failed because I was given the test by a medical supervisor and he didn't really explain to me what to do. Could I ask my recruiter to get the test retaken by an eye doctor?
Welcome to the club. I failed my DP test at meps and was somehow granted a GTEP contract for CCT, and i ship on the 28th in a few days. Its pretty obvious i have normal depth perception, Ive never had trouble playing sports or any vision related problems.

Ive been staring at some stereograms and reading a few tips online for taking this bogus test that plenty of people with normal DP seem to fail. I will take my time when i re-take it at Lackland and hopefully ace the test.

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#52465 - Tue Dec 22 2009 20:42 PM Re: Depth Perception [Re: Brettk]
Yukon Online

Operator
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Registered: Wed Mar 14 2001
Posts: 1288
Loc: Anchorage AK, USA
Originally Posted By: TheRedBaron
Its white and black there is no grey area for depth perception.
Actually there is a gray area, a pretty large one. Depth perception testing is required for on all flying classes I/IA, II, III (inflight refueling), ground based controller duty, and initial CCT/PJ examinations. Other special operational duty examinations may require screening, as specified.

The gray area is: (1) nothing assures your stereoacuity baseline is similar or comparable to others who have failed the depth perception test; and, (2) nothing assures the cause for your defective depth perception results from the same cause or causes afflicting others who have failed the required depth perception testing.

The gray areas are: (1) HQ AETC/SG is the approval and waiver authority for Initial Flying Class I, IA, II, or III physical examinations; and/or (2) HQ AETC/SGPS is sole certification and waiver authority for applicants applying for the Combat Control, Combat Rescue Officer or Pararescue Duty career fields. Thus a pass done at the local MTF is not a true pass for applicants needing initial FCIII and other required initial CCT and PJ examinations until certified by HQ AETC/SGPS.

“Yes, it sucks just keep trying to pass it” (your words and need-not mine), but your careless without any factual establishing opinion invokes the searching by others for tips on how to pass-especially those who failed the test-what they are led to believe is a bogus test that fails plenty of people with normal DP. Thus they believe they have normal DP and just need as many chances as needed to pass the test-after failing it at MEPS or during initial FCIII-to prove it.

The sucks is I have not disclosed what the depth perception test pass standard is for either PJ or CCT. Is the depth perception test group pass requirement B, C, D, E or F? Is there a different group pass requirement for corrected (glasses, contacts) and uncorrected? So yes I’ve used more than one sentence in giving a response, but perhaps others find a difference in the quality of useful information that is not found in one sentence answers.

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#52466 - Wed Dec 23 2009 06:21 AM Re: Depth Perception [Re: Yukon]
Brettk Offline
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Registered: Fri Oct 02 2009
Posts: 17
Tips for passing the test: Getting your eyes right on the eye piece, blinking and taking your time on the test, unfocusing your eyes until one pops out at you, and drinking plenty of water the night before. These all assume of course that you DO have DP. Don't know what Yukon is on about, a simple google search will reveal a substantial amount of people have trouble with the test at meps, and I really doubt they all have faulty DP.

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#52467 - Wed Dec 23 2009 06:31 AM Re: Depth Perception [Re: Brettk]
Sidewinder Offline
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Registered: Sun Feb 19 2006
Posts: 19
The link below is an older post but it still contains valid information.

Depth Perception

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#52470 - Wed Dec 23 2009 08:11 AM Re: Depth Perception [Re: Yukon]
TheRedBaron Offline
New Member

Registered: Mon Mar 13 2006
Posts: 46
Loc: PIPE
Well said. Im an Idiot. Good Luck guys.
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#52471 - Wed Dec 23 2009 08:35 AM Re: Depth Perception [Re: TheRedBaron]
Yukon Online

Operator
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Registered: Wed Mar 14 2001
Posts: 1288
Loc: Anchorage AK, USA
Yes Google worldwide web search reveal many who clain having normal DP failing the test. However most often there is no disclosing information of at what level of acuity the test was failed or what was the underlying medical condition causing the difficulty.

There is no contrasting info on how many pass the Depth Perception at MEPS. Although the test machines (OPTEC 2300 vision tester) get more use at MEPs than at an Air Force MTF eye clinic. The examiner and examinee testing procedures prescribed in policy by MEPS and by the Air Force are very similar if not exactly the same.

More important to this discussion is how many pass DP test at MEPS but subsequently fail it when given their initial flying class examination after completing BMT? This happens more frequently than what can be guessed from a Google search.

The disadvantage of MEPS physicals are focused on profiling examinations for service enlistment programs. MEPS profiling physicians typically and generally--although they may when it doesn’t adversely affect the accomplishment of the primary mission-do not provide qualification recommendation or additional testing needed to conduct a flying class physical. The best as I can tell is a MEPS pass only requires group B, whereas the Air Force requirement can be B, C, or D depending on the AFSC classification guide.

The confusion on Depth perception is Air Force policy states :
Quote:
AFI 48-123

6.44.11.2. For FC III, the requirement for normal depth perception is AFSC specific as stated in the classification guide per the career field manager. Failure of either the Vision Test Apparatus (VTA-DP), or its newer replacement, the OVT is considered disqualifying if the failure occurs with best corrected visual acuity regardless of level of uncorrected visual acuity.
Thus for many failures they don’t even know what standard they are being required to meet and often don’t even know the underlying condition causing their defective depth perception. Thus they don’t know if it is something that can be corrected for by getting prescription glasses/contacts/eye surgery or by doing eye exercises or not.

The difficulty is also complicated in the waiver baseline for what may and can be approved also differs as stated in the classification guide. Ie. Any specific individual’s depth perception impairment may be waiverable for pararescue and not for CCT. Whether initial flying class exam is done at MEPS or the local base MTF, the final approval with or without a medical waiver is HQ AETC/SG and for PJ/CCT initial exams HQ AETC/SGPS.

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#52473 - Wed Dec 23 2009 13:12 PM Re: Depth Perception [Re: Yukon]
Brettk Offline
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Registered: Fri Oct 02 2009
Posts: 17
Dont know what acuity the tests were given at or any other specifics. All Im saying is plenty of people with normal DP fail the test regularly (including me). Hell when i went to meps over half the people i went with bombed it, and I really doubt all of them had faulty DP. You can defend the test to your grave, the truth still stands.


Edited by Brettk (Wed Dec 23 2009 15:42 PM)

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#52475 - Wed Dec 23 2009 14:31 PM Re: Depth Perception [Re: Brettk]
Guard MC Offline

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Registered: Sat Aug 09 2003
Posts: 1737
Loc: Louisville, Ky STS
The truth still stands? Your perception of the truth still stands. You are relying on anecdotal evidence of your one visit to MEPS and your source of information is what? Other Applicants who may or may not understand the instructions on taking the test, may not have cared all that much whether they passed it or not when they took it, and may not even understand or know their actual results. Without reviewing everyone's physical and comparing the results, you don't really know the percentage of pass to fail. Be careful in how you state (or overstate) your case.
I agree that plenty of people fail the test who probably shouldn't. Many guys in my unit dread the DP test above all else besides the truly hated hearing exam. I can't give a comprehensive percentage of DP failures for current Operators and won't try to. I know of two Candidates (out of 20 total applicants) in our unit who failed the DP at our Flight Clinic but one later passed it with a Civilain Doctor and got a waiver from HQ AETC/SGPS. So that is about a 10% failure rate, with 50% pass rate upon re-testing with Civilian Docs. I don't know if this is a statistical anomoly but it does give cause for consideration.

Anyone who has failed the DP test and is serious about becoming a Combat Controller should give serious thought to seeing a Civilian Optometrist or Opthamologist and submitting those test results with a Waiver Request.

Civilian Optometrists and Opthamologists have by and large stopped giving this test as they feel it is inaccuarate (gives a lot of false failures). The real question is why the Military and USAF in particular keep using the test.


Edited by Guard MC (Wed Dec 23 2009 14:34 PM)
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#52476 - Wed Dec 23 2009 15:42 PM Re: Depth Perception [Re: Guard MC]
Brettk Offline
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Registered: Fri Oct 02 2009
Posts: 17
I wasnt trying to throw out any percentages based only on the people that I saw fail the test.

"All Im saying is plenty of people with normal DP fail the test regularly (including me)."

Thats the only point I was trying to make, and by reading your post it seems as though you agree with that statement, thanks for your support.

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#52479 - Wed Dec 23 2009 20:37 PM Re: Depth Perception [Re: Brettk]
Yukon Online

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Registered: Wed Mar 14 2001
Posts: 1288
Loc: Anchorage AK, USA
Originally Posted By: Brettk
You can defend the test to your grave, the truth still stands.
I’m not defending the test as much as I’m explaining despite the known rate of false failures it is required to pass the test. I’m explaining that even with the known rate of false failures getting a retest (MEPS) or a waiver is not easy as the sufficient medical evidence to justify a retest or a waiver must come from a practicing licensed medical professional. This means a physician or optometrist is either contradicting the test results or giving medical reason why a waiver is appropriate.

What I’m suggesting in my comments is tips for passing the test-- Getting your eyes right on the eye piece, blinking and taking your time on the test, unfocusing your eyes until one pops out at you, and drinking plenty of water the night before--are most useful for the examinee on the pass/fail cusp (the point of transition between pass/fail). Considering also there are several possible causes for defective or impaired depth perception the tips may not work for the condition causing the problem.

The advice I have indirectly been providing is don’t use guessing from being in ignorance as to what might work, get a diagnosis of the cause and then if a therapy or other solution is a possibility, put effort into that potentially successful solution rather than wasting time on guessing in ignorance.

What defends the test is the Air Force has reason to believe (accident reports and other studies) accurate perception of spacing or depth within 200 meters is critical in a number of situations, such as aerial refueling, formation flying, holding hover rescue type operations, taxiing, parking and also facilitates closure maneuvers and rejoins.

Quote:
AFPAM48-133

5.7.4.3. Depth Perception Test. The "simulated" depth employed in this test can make this examination very difficult to see. Therefore, the depth perception test is probably the most difficult to explain and administer to the examinee. Consequently, complete failure on this test, unless supported by other evidence, is not necessarily indicative of poor depth perception. To reduce the number of "false failures", do not hurry through the demonstration and practice periods that precede the actual test.


Quote:
USMEPCOM Regulation 40-1

5-22. Instructions for OPTEC 2300

a. The OPTEC 2300 depth perception test is difficult for some applicants with normal vision to interpret correctly. Common errors in the use of the OPTEC 2300 include improper positioning of the variable prism eye pieces during testing, improper instruction, and improper use of the light switch mechanisms located on the back of the machine. False failures can result if the examiner does not give a thorough, unrushed demonstration of what is expected and does not allow an adequate practice session before beginning the actual test. All Air Force applicants going Class III, air traffic controller, crew member, or commissioning (as well as Navy commissioning physicals) will be tested for depth perception using the OPTEC 2300. Navy and Marine applicants will be tested for depth perception after determination of job classification (MOS/NEC) which requires depth perception capability.


Originally Posted By: Brettk
"All Im saying is plenty of people with normal DP fail the test regularly (including me)."
The testing device measures capability to achieve steropsis (depth perception) from a high of 40 seconds of arc to low as 15 seconds of arc. 40 -30 seconds of arc is considered having a normal depth perception capability. 20 seconds of arc and lower is considered exceptional. The limit of human stereopsis is most probably around 5 seconds of arc.

I realize you are expecting to become CCT (report to BMT 28 Dec 2009), but as I previously explained MEPS has no tasking to provide qualification recommendation or additional testing needed to conduct a flying class physical or to conduct a marine diving duty physical. Thus most of your AFSC specific medical examination and testing gets done after reporting to BMT.

The depth perception testing given you at MEPS is also most probable the first depth perception testing you ever had. The odds are in my favor this is also the shared reality all those other people you went to MEPS with who failed and passed the depth perception test.

Good Vision Isn't Just About Good Glasses

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#52480 - Thu Dec 24 2009 08:05 AM Re: Depth Perception [Re: Yukon]
Yukon Online

Operator
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Registered: Wed Mar 14 2001
Posts: 1288
Loc: Anchorage AK, USA
Originally Posted By: Sidewinder
The link below is an older post but it still contains valid information.

Depth Perception
In reading those posts and rereading these posts there was no clarity that depth perception is near (such as used for eye hand coordination to put a thread through the eye of a sewing needle), intermediate distance depth perception (such as used to throw the football to a receiver, or to catch the baseball), and distance depth perception.

The aviation depth perception concern the Air Force tests for is the intermediate dstance depth perception needed within 200 meters (near and long distance depth perception is not part of the test given). For PJs and CCT who do precision parachute jumps to small drop zones and especially PJs who have to manipulate parachute to a moving target in the open ocean, such depth perception is important. I suppose it could also be important in estimating the range from current location for CAS to reach out and take care of an enemy force closing in on your location and the accomplishing of a few other tasks in oh-s't moments.

On a humor from the dark side perspective tip for passing the depth perception test, don’t smoke the wacky tobacco during or immediately before the depth perception test.

Quote:
Do You Know... Cannabis

Cannabis impairs depth perception, attention span and concentration, slows reaction time, and decreases muscle strength and hand steadiness - all of which may affect a person's ability to drive safely.


Quote:
The Merck Manuals- Marijuana

Coordination, reaction time, depth perception, and concentration may be impaired during marijuana use, so driving or operating heavy equipment is dangerous. Other effects include an increased heart rate, bloodshot eyes, and dry mouth. Effects usually last 4 to 6 hours after inhalation.


The purpose of the test is to screen for medical conditions (cranial nerve palsy, microtopia, monofixation, retinal disease, ocular motility disorder, brain tumor, etc) causing deficient or impaired stereopsis (depth perception) and not to actually determine depth perception ability.

Passing with correction meets standards. The failure means something potentially bad medically might be going on and it needs to be looked into further, most of a time it is nothing more than a vision problem that is a correctable refraction vision problem (meaning getting a prescription eye glasses or contacts is the fix and person can be qualified without a waiver), but until the reason is known a qualified with or without waiver will not be given.

This is also why the DP test is subsequently given to PJs/CCT during annual FCIII diving duty exams after the initial exam. PJs and CCT participate in a lot of physically demanding activities having potential to cause acute or chronic (repetitive) impact blunt trauma to head (traumatic brain injury) and neck (whiplash injury to 4th cranial nerve). A failure means a potential problem picked up in the line of duty or it may just be a normal ageing process of needing reading glasses or bifocals. Again passing with correction meets standards.

Most who fail after further evaluation continue to meet standards with or without waiver. Most who disclose their DP failure and complain about the test being bogus on the worldwide web don't make any effort to understand why they failed the test or why it's actually required.

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#52597 - Wed Jan 13 2010 13:20 PM Re: Depth Perception [Re: Yukon]
outclassed Offline
New Member

Registered: Tue Jan 06 2009
Posts: 3
I do not want to possibly drag this out, but I have a question regarding my medical history and a possible waiver in light of what seem to be the 'new' standards for obtaining a Flying Class III based on AF148-123 - 6.44.8.2. Perhaps I have been confused all along and depth perception has always been required for the PJ career-field but my question specifically involves a history with strabismus (cross-eyed).

6.44.8.2.6 states: History of extraocular muscle surgery or strabismus therapies is disqualifying and requires complete evaluation of ocular motility by a competent eye care professional to look for residual heterophorias, heterotropias (including microtropias), and motor sensory problems...

I was born cross-eyed and underwent 2 successful surgeries by competent AF surgeons to fix the condition before reaching the age of 5 years. I was and have been very fortunate. In light of the above regulation, can a wavier be obtained for my history? I have depth perception issues as well. It could be that the answer is "it depends" but I would appreciate any possible insight.

I certainty can understand why a history of this condition would give the AF pause for any aircrew field but I hate to have to give up on getting to indoc so easily.

I appreciate any input and have always been grateful for this great resource.

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#52598 - Wed Jan 13 2010 18:16 PM Re: Depth Perception [Re: outclassed]
Yukon Online

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Registered: Wed Mar 14 2001
Posts: 1288
Loc: Anchorage AK, USA
I don't believe anybody visiting these forums can give you the answer to your question.

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#52654 - Thu Jan 21 2010 11:34 AM Re: Depth Perception [Re: Yukon]
Embracethesuck Offline
New Member

Registered: Tue Aug 28 2007
Posts: 24
Well guys, needless to say I looked at some of those pictures with the image that pops out and I also got some glasses prescribed im 20/20 and 20/30 with a small stigmatism in one eye which was told is not that uncommon. I passed the test the other day no problem the circles popped right out!! (using the glasses) which is acceptable

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#54575 - Mon Jul 12 2010 15:00 PM Re: Depth Perception [Re: Embracethesuck]
Porcupine Offline
Member

Registered: Thu Apr 01 2010
Posts: 299
Loc: California, United States
So is passing the Depth Perception test a requirement for Pararescue?

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#54576 - Mon Jul 12 2010 16:18 PM Re: Depth Perception [Re: Porcupine]
TE Offline
PJ/Operator/Admin/RKC
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Registered: Thu Oct 17 2002
Posts: 4052
Loc: Nellis
No...neither CCT nor PJ are required to pass...you will be tested.


http://www.specialtactics.com/ubbthreads....html#Post20724
_________________________
TE
Pararescueman/Webmaster/Administrator/RKC
The real test comes when all strength has fled, and men must produce victory on will alone...

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#54577 - Mon Jul 12 2010 17:19 PM Re: Depth Perception [Re: TE]
Porcupine Offline
Member

Registered: Thu Apr 01 2010
Posts: 299
Loc: California, United States
Originally Posted By: TE
No...neither CCT nor PJ are required to pass...you will be tested.


http://www.specialtactics.com/ubbthreads....html#Post20724


I checked that link TE, and UBoat said this:
"UPDATE !
As of 01OCT02, depth perception IS REQUIRED FOR PARARESCUE!!"

Also: Wildtiger said:
"This is what I know, I went to MEPS in September and failed the Depth Percetion test...they Sgt there said everything was alright. Until I got a call about a week later saying that the Suregon General had just changed the regulations stating that all PJ's now have to pass the DP test."


Was it changed to being "required", then changed back to "not required"?

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#54578 - Mon Jul 12 2010 17:50 PM Re: Depth Perception [Re: Porcupine]
Persico88 Offline
New Member

Registered: Tue Dec 29 2009
Posts: 25
Loc: Pipeline
I took my IFC III today @ Flight Medicine and whether you are going for PJ or CCT you will be tested on your depth perception ability. The career fields you are going for won't hold you exempt from the DP test. It is a mandatory examination done in the IFC III that all members must take. If you pass, great... If not then you will be considered for a waiver that will most likely be approved. If not you will be considered for a more stringent eye examination at optometry or even be sent TDY to Brooks AFB for extensive testing.
_________________________
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice the gift"
NFQ

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#54580 - Mon Jul 12 2010 19:16 PM Re: Depth Perception [Re: Persico88]
Porcupine Offline
Member

Registered: Thu Apr 01 2010
Posts: 299
Loc: California, United States
Thanks Persico88. All is clear now cool

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#54581 - Mon Jul 12 2010 22:13 PM Re: Depth Perception [Re: Porcupine]
TE Offline
PJ/Operator/Admin/RKC
****

Registered: Thu Oct 17 2002
Posts: 4052
Loc: Nellis
From Yukon:

Reference page 56, AFI48-123 24 SEPTEMBER 2009 Discusses Initial Flying Class Physicals.

6.1.3. Medical Evaluation Scope.

Note: All IFCIII physicals are required to have color vision, depth perception, height, hearing, distant and near visual acuity testing results recorded even if a specific AFSC does not require the standard to qualify for a particular career field. Results must be recorded and information put into PEPP and AIMWTS.

And

6.4.15. All FCIII depth perception deficiencies, color vision deficiencies, or other conditions that restrict the individual’s ability to perform scanning duties or otherwise restrict ability to perform FCIII duties. Note: Enlisted flying criteria is the decision of the AFSC CFM at AF/A3.

And

6.44.11.2. For FC III, the requirement for normal depth perception is AFSC specific as stated in the classification guide per the career field manager. Failure of either the Vision Test Apparatus (VTA-DP), or its newer replacement, the OVT is considered disqualifying if the failure occurs with best corrected visual acuity regardless of level of uncorrected visual acuity. 6.44.11.2.2. All will be tested. All IFCIII physicals are required to have depth perception results recorded even if a specific AFSC does not require the standard to qualify for a particular career field. Results must be recorded and information put into PEPP and AIMWTS (e.g. VTA-DP fails D, AFSC does not require depth perception). 6.44.11.2.3. For those AFSCs that are identified in the classification guide as requiring depth perception, failure of the VTA or OVT stereopsis testing requires completion of a local preliminary ocular motility and macular examination by an ophthalmologist or optometrist, and review by both AETC and the ACS. The testing must be accomplished as listed in 6.44.11.1.1 above.

And

6.44.11.2. For FC III, the requirement for normal depth perception is AFSC specific as stated in the classification guide per the career field manager. Failure of either the Vision Test Apparatus (VTA-DP), or its newer replacement, the OVT is considered disqualifying if the failure occurs with best corrected visual acuity regardless of level of uncorrected visual acuity.

6.44.11.2.2. All will be tested. All IFCIII physicals are required to have depth perception results recorded even if a specific AFSC does not require the standard to qualify for a particular career field. Results must be recorded and information put into PEPP and AIMWTS (e.g. VTA-DP fails D, AFSC does not require depth perception).

6.44.11.2.3. For those AFSCs that are identified in the classification guide as requiring depth perception, failure of the VTA or OVT stereopsis testing requires completion of a local preliminary ocular motility and macular examination by an ophthalmologist or optometrist, and review by both AETC and the ACS. The testing must be accomplished as listed in 6.44.11.1.1 above.

Please specifically note--- 6.48.4.2. Defective Depth Perception. Is listed as disqualifying for parearescue and combat control duty. Pertinent to this it is my understanding a VTA-DP fails D for initial medical exam for pararescue/combat control duties is considered defective depth perception being addressed in 6.48.4.2.
---------------
What I can say is I have talked to both the CCT and PJ careerfield managers and both state that passing depth perception is not required but as Yukon and Persico88 intimate is that any underlying condition that may cause one to fail the depth perception test will be looked at very closely.
_________________________
TE
Pararescueman/Webmaster/Administrator/RKC
The real test comes when all strength has fled, and men must produce victory on will alone...

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#54584 - Tue Jul 13 2010 00:53 AM Re: Depth Perception [Re: TE]
Porcupine Offline
Member

Registered: Thu Apr 01 2010
Posts: 299
Loc: California, United States
Thanks TE, you guys are allot of help.

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