Does the AF Combat Dive school offer a different badge than the "new" Army Special Operations Diver badge (or the old SCUBA bubble)? Also, what is worn on the new ABU -- the old BDU dive badge, a new Blue sew-on AF dive badge, the black pin-on like the Army now uses with the ACU, or something different? (I've done some google searches on the topic, but haven't turned up anything; ditto for a cursory check of AFI36-2903)

I'm an AF vet who graduated CDQC several years ago. I've have followed those changes with some interest, and was wondering about the AF changes as well, now that there's a dive school and a new uniform.

Thanks! :-)

Some guys are wearing a new badge, I still have the old design. AFCDC is working on a design I think, or it may already be approved...not sure. Either way, the badge is worn on the ABU (sewn on) same place as the BDUs, with colors/background that match the other, more common, badges.

Not for nothing, but...

There is an issue with the wear of either SCUBA badge on the new ABUs. We had an ORI team in here about three months ago with a team member who was on the AETC uniform board when they worked the new AFI and the new ABU --- we got tore up for wearing both the MFF and SCUBA bubble, interpretation from AETC/A1 is that the ABU is only authorized for flight and occupational badges.

No Army, USMC or Navy badges, no scrolls, tabs or lapel devices. Specifically we were written up because the MFF and SCUBA badges were US Army badges only authorized for wear on the BDU when assigned to and on orders to conduct those duties!

Yeah, well so much for that. We live right down the road from Hurlburt where the ABU is worn with everything from the commander's pin to the Air Assualt on ther pocket flap.

The MFF badge is not specifically an Army badge and it's awarded for permanent wear (unless revoked later)--see AFI 11-402. Sounds like he inserted regulations concerning wear of the Air Assualt badge, instead.

What is confusing to me is how even basic jump/parachutist wings are allowed on the ABU, since: 11. AERONAUTICAL, CHAPLAIN, AND OCCUPATIONAL BADGES AND REQUIRED DUTY SHIELDS ARE AUTHORIZED. OCCUPATIONAL BADGES ARE OPTIONAL. OTHER BADGES ARE NOT AUTHORIZED.

On the Scuba badge, AFI 36-2903 lists it as a misc. badge, which doesn't help, either.

I've seen arguments on other boards concerning this topic and it seems to me like the regs are poorly written (unless you're a pilot, go figure). I'm hoping to get back into Mother Blue and thought I'd wear MFF and Master Blaster wings on the ABU just like the BDU. There definitely seems to be a mismatch b/w the regs and what's done in practice, but I hate to hear guys get ripped for wearing a badge they earned.

I wear my parachutist badge and haven't been ripped, when did it stop being an aeronautical award?

Things that make ya go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

Basic airborne parachutist badge has been and still is an aeronautical award (just so happens it is awarded to USAFA cadets)
MFF badge, at this time, is NOT an aeronautical badge (just so happens the USAFA parachute program is not static line, but rather a freefall course, well sort of...)

Kinda like the ABU, you know the one wear in the desert being made of fabric that increases the body corp temperature.

All this is mute, non need to worry,
New Chief of Staff = New Uniform!

I used to think Static-Line and MFF parachutist wings were considered Aeronautical Badges until someone told me to read the regs--and I did! Check out AFI 11-402, pg. 99, 7.47, Note 2. And I quote: "A parachutist badge is not considered an aviation badge." Then, go to AFI 36-2903, pg., 139, Note 2. And I quote: "The parachutist badge is not considered an aeronautical badge, however it does take precedence over other badges."

Now, it only makes sense to me that if generals are wearing their "Academy wings" (that's where I got my first pair, too) on their ABU's, then both Static-Line and MFF wings would be appropriate. This still isn't in line with ABU guidance that says Aeronautical badges and duty/functional badges only, but is in line with everyone's course of performance. And it seems like if that's allowed, then why not allow the Scuba bubble--it's a misc. badge, not a sister service badge.

Whatever the new guy (gal???) does as Chief, I vote for getting rid of the mandatory V-neck T-shirt. And yeah, I know ladies dig my chest hair, but c'mon.

Are the guys who went through AFCDC authorized to wear the SOCOM dive badge? I tried to find a reference but haven't been able to yet. The only thing I found was on wikipedia stating that they were.

Here is some info on when the Army was authorized to wear it:

http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Badges/diverbadges.htm

I'll call the dive school and see what they say unless someone has a reference.

Thanks TE!

The request for approval of the new AFCDB has been sent forward from their MAJCOM CC for approval of the CSAF with a requested suspense of 30 Sep 08 (just before the new FY).

Since Gen Schwartz is a long time SOF guy, my sense is it would be approved...more to follow.

TE,
I'm a former Force Recon Marine...attended the Combatant Diver Course at NDSTC. Am now with the AF Reserves. Do you have any info regarding the regs and whether the USMC Combatant Diver is the equivalent AF diver badge? No one I know seems to know exactly what the deal is on wearing them on the ABUs along with jumps wings (am aware that there are no Navy/USMC gold wings, but that they equate to the basic Army snowcone badge)

I'm sure there are other former force bubbas like me in active and reserve AF, so was hoping could get some insight.
Thanks.

ForceBubba,
The USMC CDC is recognized the same as USAF CDC and US Army CDC. All are entitled to wear "The sharks with laser beams on their friggin heads" combat diver device when in a dive billet. I believe that the AFI has been updated to allow you to wear it even if not in a dive billet. I'll check the AFI when I get back to work in a couple of days.

ForceBubba,
My original intent was to give you the answer but it makes more sense to teach you to find the answer. The whole, "Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime." approach.

So, try going to the Air Force Publications website.
www.e-publishing.af.mil

On the right side is a search box where you can type in the AFI number (36-2903) or the short title "Dress and Appearance".

Click on the link for AFI 36-2903 when it appears

This will take you to AFI 36-2903, 22 August 2006. The current AFI 36-2903 is in re-coordination as it was not coordinated properly the first time.

Type in SCUBA Badge in the "find" block

The very first entry for SCUBA Badge takes you to Table 5.2 for Miscellaneous Badges.
It states that the SCUBA Badge may be worn when awarded.

The wear of the Parachutist Badge can be found similarly, though AFI 36-2903 just explains that it is not an Aeronautical Badge but takes precedence over all miscellaneous badges. It refers you to AFI 11-402, AVIATION AND PARACHUTIST SERVICE, AERONAUTICAL RATINGS AND BADGES, dated 25 Sept 2007.

Searching AFI 11-402 will yield (eventually) paragraph 7.4.7, that states "USAF members awarded parachutist badges by a sister service are authorized to wear the USAF parachutist badge."

This took me 10 minutes on my day off from home. You and your Supervisor could probably have accomplished the same thing at work over UTA. You are new to the Air Force so you can't be expected to have learned the AFI numbering system yet, but your boss should have by now.

The AFI system can be a bit tricky to navigate but if you use the AF Publications website and keep plugging away, you will be able to answer almost any question. We all have a tendency to state what we think the AFI says, rather than to look it up. Only recently have I begun to really dig into publications due to necessity. If I could do anything different in my time of service, it would be to consult the AFI and TO system from the start rather than relying on hear say and "its always been this way..."

Good luck in your new Air Force career!

It also needs to be recognized the operative word is "awarded" and the Marines publish orders awarding these badges. Awarded means all the USMC awarded documentation is entered into Air Force/AF Reserve Personnel records if the badges are to be worn on the Air Force uniform, especially the Air Force Service Dress Uniform (called Class A in my days).

Considering the being awarded the Navy/Marine Corps Parachutist Insignia is popular claim to impress legs, get laid, and pad EPRs and award and decoration recommendations in the USAF Security Force career field the following info is provided for the heck of knowing how the The Navy and Marine Corps Parachutist Insignia actually racks up against the Basic Parachutist Badge (basic Army snowcone badge) since all PJs and CCT are required to be strong capable swimmers.

There is no conversion of Navy/Marine Corps Parachutist Insignia to any other Parachutists Badge as there is no comparable in-between the Basic Parachutist Badge (5 static line jumps) and The Senior Parachutist Badge (30 static line jumps, 24 months on status and jumpmaster qualified). Furthermore the Basic Parachutist Badge is required as prerequisite for a Marine to get the Navy/Marine Corps Parachutist Insignia.

Here is the US Navy Policy:

11. Navy and Marine Corps Parachutist Insignia. The Navy and Marine Corps Parachutist Insignia consists of a breast insignia as prescribed by NAVPERS 15665I and MCO P1020.34E. The right to wear the Navy and Marine Corps Parachutist Insignia is authorized for those members who have previously qualified for the Basic Parachutist Insignia; have, under competent orders, completed a minimum of five additional static-line or P3 jumps with a Navy or Marine Corps organization whose mission includes static-line or P3 jumping with verification of such jumps for enlisted members included on NAVPERS 1070/613 of the service record; and whose right to wear such insignia has not been revoked.

And here is the Marine Corp Policy:

Marines who have completed a CG, Training and Education Command (C 461TP) approved basic parachuting course are eligible to wear the Basic Parachutist Insignia per P1020.34. The Navy and Marine Corps Parachutist Insignia is authorized for wear by those Marines who have met the requirements of enclosure (1), paragraph 7. The Marine Corps only issues Navy and Marine Corps Parachutist Insignia to Marines. Marines who have completed a Naval Diving and Salvage Center course of instruction are authorized to wear a Navy or Marine Combatant Dive Insignia that represents the highest level of diving proficiency.

The other not waiverable requirements for the Marine to be issued the Navy and Marine Corps Parachutist Insignia are:

Marines, while assigned to an authorized T/O parachuting billet for a period of no less than 90 days, have the required swim qualification and must complete five additional jumps. The five additional jumps must include at least two combat equipment day jumps, two combat equipment night jumps, and employ two or more types of military aircraft.

So all the Navy and Marine Corps Parachutist Insignia represents is total of ten jumps (presuming 5 jumps were made going through the Army Airborne Course) and the ability to swim.

The Navy or Marine Combatant Dive Insignia conversion to another combat diver badge to the Air Force combat diver badge is easier as the qualifications are comparable.

Here is the Marine Corps concerning diving:

The Marine Corps maintains its own primary school for teaching Marine Combatant Diving (MCD) in Panama City, Fl co-located with Naval Diving and Salvage Training Center (NDSTC). This course is taught by reconnaissance trained Marines to PMOS 0321 trained reconnaissance Marines. Combatant diving will only be conducted by units whose operational requirements dictate insertion/extraction by that means. Currently only Force Reconnaissance and Reconnaissance Battalions and associated reconnaissance billets designated by MOS 0321 and on Marine Corps T/Os, maintain an operational requirement.

The prior service Marine’s DD-214 should show one of the following the following primary MOS was awarded and training records, jump logs, dive logs would also be official records available for backing up the issue/award of these two badges:

(1) CMC, DC PP&O (POE) is the occupational field (OccFld) sponsor for all parachuting and diving MOS's, with exception of 0451, 0405, which are managed by CMC, DC I&L (LPC-1). The following category "B" and identifying MOS's will be assigned/voided in accordance with reference (b), paragraphs 2105 and 3105, and reference (c), paragraphs 1143, 3144, and 3145:

8652 - Reconnaissance Man, Parachute Jump Qualified
8653 - Reconnaissance Man, Combatant Diver Qualified
8654 - Reconnaissance Man, Parachute/Combatant Diver Qualified
9952 - Combatant Diver Marine (Officer/Enlisted)
9953 - Parachutist/Combatant Diver Marine (Officer/Enlisted)
9962 - Parachutist (Officer/Enlisted)

(2) Marines with the primary MOSs 0451, 0405 are qualified parachutists. Accordingly, they will not be assigned MOS 9962. They will be assigned the additional MOS 9953 upon completion of an approved Marine Corps combatant diver qualification course or MOS 8654 upon subsequent assignment and completion of the Basic Reconnaissance Course (BRC) (MOS 0321). Attendance BRC must be accomplished before the attendance of combatant dive training.

Guard MC,
Thanks for taking the time out to point me in the right direction. I'm learning So to make sure I'm clear on what you found in the AFIs...sister service-awarded USMC CD bubble and Navy/Marine Corps wings would be the AF version of (some type of Army) parachute badge and USA/AF CD device, and both of these AF devices are authorized for wear on AF ABUs and dress uniforms, correct?
Thanks.

Forcebubba I previously stated wear of the Parachutist Badge and Combat Diver Badge on any Air Force uniform comes with it the requirement of your Air Force service records must document the badges were/are awarded to you. That the USMC awarded you the parachutist and combat diver badges needs to be documented in your Air Force Service records.

AFI 36-2903, Dress and Personal Appearance of Air Force Personnel gives guidance where and how to wear the badges on Air Force uniforms providing the badges are awarded to the service member. For determining if the badge is awarded this AFI refers to other policy.

For award of parachutist badge, AFI 36-2903 refers to AFI 11-404. In AFI 11-404 is found:

For award of the appropriate diver badge AFI 36-2903 simply states the OPR for award of the Diver badge is HQ USAF/XOOS. Although not mentioned in AFI 36-2903 reference to authorized to wear when awarded is also found in AFI 10-3501.
My context of comments is not whether the Marine Corps awarded you badges, but rather if you are wearing an Air Force uniform and want to wear these badges your Air Force records need to document you were awarded these badges and in consequence of being permanently awarded, authorized to wear these badges on your Air Force uniforms.

It would be no different if I switched from Air Force to the Marines, Navy, or Army. The current service record of the service I switched to need to document the badges being awarded.

If your Air Force service records show award, you can wear both on the Service uniform. ABU uniform did not exist during my days and last info I ever heard about the ABU is it is badge unfriendly as in the Air Force doesn’t want many, if any, badges worn on it. Pertinent to this what badges might be allowed for PJs and CCT to wear on the ABU might not be allowed for other AFSCs not currently performing combat diver/parachutist duties which is probably why nobody in your AFRES unit can give you an answer.