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#52593 - Tue Jan 12 2010 19:57 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: Yukon]
DantheGuy Offline
New Member

Registered: Sat Aug 20 2005
Posts: 11
Loc: Macdill AFB, Tampa, Fl
Yukon,
Thanks for the reply.

Not gonna lie, first time I read your post I almost felt like telling my guy he had a brain tumor... But I understand that the failure can be caused by many things, and we need to figure out what it is. Like my paratooper said jokingly about static line jumping "its not like im gonna miss the ground, It'll find me". Hopefully we can get him fixed or waivered. Get him jumping again and reopen some doors for his future.

Thanks again.

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#52595 - Wed Jan 13 2010 07:57 AM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: DantheGuy]
Yukon Online   content

Operator
*****

Registered: Wed Mar 14 2001
Posts: 927
Loc: Anchorage AK, USA
I've been doing considerable resarch on the Depth Perception test and requirement. I've asked some specific questions to functionals through TE and have not gotten any answers yet.

However:
Quote:
AFPAM48-133 PHYSICIAL EXAMINATION TECHNIQUES, Table 10.1, item 33:

Failure on initial screening requires a full optometry or ophthalmology evaluation, to include: ductions, versions, cover
test and alternate cover test in primary and six cardinal positions of gaze, AO Vectograph Stereopsis Test at six meters, AO Suppression Test at six meters, Randot Stereopsis Test, and 4 Diopter Base out Prism Test at six meters. These tests are designed to identify motility disorders, particularly
microtropias and monofixation.

New failure of screening when previously passed requires optometry or ophthalmology evaluation to rule out correctable causes, such as refractive error, anisometropia, or macular disease. If member has previously failed VTA-ND and passed the near stereopsis test (DPA-V or Randot), no further work-up is required.


Note also this pamphlet also discloses "10.1.3.7. G = Initial CCT/PJ (FCIII + Marine Diving Duty)" which clearly and concisely indicates PJ and CCT get the exact same medical examination.

The other info I provided was from other sources which included an article published by a AETC/SG flight surgeon who did approvals for initial flyer class exams at AETC. That article however focused mostly on FCIII and FCII Depth perception requirements and not specifically PJ and CCT which is why I asked some questions myself.

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#52840 - Sun Feb 07 2010 06:16 AM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: Bsjkg87]
349RCS Offline
New Member

Registered: Sat Jan 09 2010
Posts: 2
Loc: Oklahoma
I understand this has been circulating for some time. Base on AFIs and MILPDS which recruiting using to book jobs. Color Vision is needed, Depth Perception not needed for PJ,CCT. Based on the Medical Regulation in the class 3 flight physical requirements is also not needed. However, to get JTAC certified it is needed. Trust me, we have been working this issue for the last several months to get clarified on this issue.
_________________________
Mark E. Terry
349 RCS/RST
405-274-9990

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#52841 - Sun Feb 07 2010 08:27 AM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: 349RCS]
Yukon Online   content

Operator
*****

Registered: Wed Mar 14 2001
Posts: 927
Loc: Anchorage AK, USA
Best improve your reading comprehension and research skills. I can find nothing that differs the PJ/CTT requirement of "defective depth perception is disqualifying" from "is considered disqualifying if the failure occurs with best corrected visual acuity regardless of level of uncorrected visual acuity." The requirement for PJ CTT is to pass Depth perception test without or with corrective (glasses/contacts) accuity and have at or better than 20/70 uncorrected vision, correctable to 20/20 each eye.

1. There is nothing that distinguishes the mandatory Depth Perception requirement of normal depth perception needed to perform JTAC duties from the normal depth perception needed to perform CCT or Pararescue duties other than CCT and PJ are an occupation classification to reserve or book a job against.

2. Not all TACP, ALOs, CCT, STO members obtain and sustain JTAC qualifications and perform JTAC duties.

3. The experience and skill level requirements for eligibility to attend the JTAC qualification course distinctly and clearly states enlisted must possess 5-skill level in specific Air Force specialties of 1C2X1 or 1C4X1 and possess 1 year operational experience.

4. JTAC is nothing that concerns Air Force recruiters as it is not an enlisted or officer occupation classification to reserve or book a job against, so I don't know how or why JTAC duties was introduced into the conversation.

Quote:
Reference: AFI13-112V1, 15 FEBRUARY 2008, JOINT TERMINAL ATTACK CONTROLLER (JTAC) TRAINING PROGRAM , Table 1. 1 - Personnel Authorized to Perform JTAC Duties:

Individuals who lack normal color vision or depth perception IAW AFI 48-123, Medical Examinations and Standards.


AND

Quote:
Reference: AFI 48-123, 24 September 2009, Medical Examinations and Standards

6.46.7. Depth Perception. No standard except for career fields below:

6.46.7.1. Tactical Air Control Party (1C4X1), Air Liaison Officer (13LX). Failure of either the Vision Test Apparatus (VTA-DP), or its newer replacement, the OVT is considered disqualifying if the failure occurs with best corrected visual acuity regardless of level of uncorrected visual acuity.

6.46.7.2. Failure of the VTA or OVT stereopsis testing requires completion of a local preliminary ocular motility and macular examination by an ophthalmologist or optometrist, and review by both AETC and the ACS. The testing must be accomplished as listed in 6.44.11.1.1
...
Section 6I— Ground Based Aircraft Controller
6.46. Ground Based Aircraft Controller Medical Standards. The standards in Section 6I apply to all ground based aircraft controllers which includes air traffic controller, weapons controllers/directors, combat controllers and Aerospace Control and Warning Systems (1C5X1), Tactical Air Control Party (1C4X1), Air Liaison Officer (13LX) and UAS sensor operators (1UOX1). Conditions in Chapter 5, Continued Military Service (Retention Standards) also apply. For conditions listed in Chapter 5, ensure an MEB has been performed and final disposition made prior to submission of a waiver request. Combat Controllers must meet the FC III requirements in Section 6G and the parachute duty requirements in Section 6K (6.48.2.) Air Battle Managers, Air Weapons Controllers/Directors, and Airborne sensor operators required to perform frequent and regular aerial flights must also meet Flying Class III standards in Section 6G. Pararescuemen must also meet standards in Section 6K. The medical conditions listed in Chapter 5, Section 6G and Section 6K are cause to reject an examinee for initial controller duty or continued duty unless a waiver is granted. Acute medical problems, injuries, or their appropriate therapy are cause for withholding certification of initial training or temporarily restricting the individual from controller duties until the problem is resolved. These standards are not all inclusive, and other diseases, or defects, can be cause for rejection based upon the medical judgment of the examining flight surgeon. Acute conditions which impair safe and effective performance of duty are cause for temporary removal from controlling duties using AF Form 1042, Medical Recommendation for Flying or Special Operational Duty, IAW Section 6C. Note: These standards do not apply to: Small unmanned aircraft systems operators (SUAS-Os). (See Section 6K 6.48.11.).
...
6.48.4. Marine Diving Duty (Pararescue and Combat Control Duty).
...
6.48.4.1. The following conditions are disqualifying:
...
6.48.4.2. Defective Depth Perception.


AND

Quote:
Reference AFPAM 48-133, 1 June 2000, Physical Exam Techniques:

Identifies the following legends (and others) pertinent to this discussion as to what examination item has a mandatory required entry item to be completed.

10.1.3.3. C = Initial Flying Class I/IA, II, III/US Service Academies
10.1.3.4. D = Periodic Flying/Nonflying (Personnel reporting to UFT and ARC members only IAW AFI 48-123)
10.1.3.6. F = Initial Ground Based Controller Duty
10.1.3.7. G = Initial CCT/PJ (FCIII + Marine Diving Duty)

Table 10.1. Medical Examination Accomplishment and Recording Standard Form 88, Report of Medical Examination item 34 identifies C, D, F, G must have a depth perception test recorded.


Unfortunately AFPAM 48-133 and AFI 48-123 do not identify a normal depth perception standard other than passing with correction once a full optometry or ophthalmology evaluation has been done is a pass.

The depth perception test "Pass" standard without correction or with correction is the same for C, D, F, G. Nobody at AETC/SG or other MAJCOM SG has provided me any documentation or opinion that asserts, suggests, infers, or implies otherwise.

Also note:
Quote:
Reference AFECD, 31 January 2010, TACTICAL AIR CONTROL PARTY (TACP)(Effective 28 Sep 09):

3.5.2. For entry, award and retention of AFSCs 1C411/31/51/71/91/00:

3.5.2.1 Compliance with the medical standards for Ground Based Controller Duty as defined in AFI 48-123, Medical Examinations and Standards.
...
3.5.3.1. For personnel certified as a JTAC, regardless of skill level, permanent JTAC decertification IAW AFI 13-112, Volume 2, will result in removal from the 1C4XX AFSC.


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#53684 - Mon Apr 12 2010 08:53 AM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: Yukon]
TE Offline
PJ/Operator/Admin/RKC
****

Registered: Thu Oct 17 2002
Posts: 3597
Loc: Nellis
From the CCT FAMs:

Depth perception is no longer a requirement for CCT. It was not a requirement for ATC and we went back and forth for CCT--Chief CW finally just had it removed.
_________________________
TE
Pararescueman/Webmaster/Administrator/RKC
The real test comes when all strength has fled, and men must produce victory on will alone...

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#53737 - Thu Apr 15 2010 08:23 AM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: TE]
usmcCCTwnb Offline
New Member

Registered: Tue Apr 13 2010
Posts: 6
Loc: Georgia
Sorry for asking but you are saying depth perception is no longer a requirement for cct? If this is true I am ecstatic as I thought I was screwed being that I have about 75% of my depth perception and was real down looking for waivers or other oppurtunities.

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#53738 - Thu Apr 15 2010 08:39 AM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: usmcCCTwnb]
TE Offline
PJ/Operator/Admin/RKC
****

Registered: Thu Oct 17 2002
Posts: 3597
Loc: Nellis
That is what the CCT Functional Managers are saying (the decision makers, coordinated through SG)...DP is no longer a requirement for CCT...you will of course be tested on it though.
_________________________
TE
Pararescueman/Webmaster/Administrator/RKC
The real test comes when all strength has fled, and men must produce victory on will alone...

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#53739 - Thu Apr 15 2010 08:51 AM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: TE]
usmcCCTwnb Offline
New Member

Registered: Tue Apr 13 2010
Posts: 6
Loc: Georgia
Outstanding you have made my day and thanks for the quick response. This board is great for getting to the bottom of things with all the information that is out there you really help to sift through it.

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#53747 - Thu Apr 15 2010 13:28 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: usmcCCTwnb]
Yukon Online   content

Operator
*****

Registered: Wed Mar 14 2001
Posts: 927
Loc: Anchorage AK, USA
Originally Posted By: usmcCCTwnb
Sorry for asking but you are saying depth perception is no longer a requirement for cct? If this is true I am ecstatic as I thought I was screwed being that I have about 75% of my depth perception and was real down looking for waivers or other oppurtunities.
Even people totally blind in one eye with good vision in the remaining eye can have adequate depth perception.

The pass/fail depth perception test used by DOD has never measured adequate ability for performing any AFSC specific duties or tasks, its purpose has always focused on abnormal depth perception is a potential symptom of other possible disqualifying medical conditions that must be tested for and ruled out.
Originally Posted By: TE
...DP is no longer a requirement for CCT...you will of course be tested on it though.

Consequently although normal Depth Perception is no longer required (the impairment base-line for performing duties and specific tasks has never been established for depth perception) it appears the DP test is still administered and a pass/fail of the test still exists.

Consequently your disclosure of having only 75% of depth perception is useless information without the cause for this abnormal depth perception being disclosed. The 75% may provide adequate depth/distance perception ability, or not. However, if you are missing an eye or are totally blind in one eye, the medical disqualifier cause will be not meeting the visual acuity standard of 20/70 uncorrected vision, correctable to 20/20 each eye rather than abnormal depth perception.

Depth perception ability becomes significantly inadequate with 20/20 to 20/40 in one eye and 20/200 or worse in the other eye. Depth perception deteriorates differently for each person’s acuity but the connection is included in the maximum vision acuity waiver standards- 20/100 both eyes corrected to 20/20, or 20/200 worse eye-20/70 better eye, corrected to 20/20 both eyes).

Abnormal depth perception is not the same as lack of adequate depth/distance perception (reduced to the point it impairs ability to perform duties or required performance tasks). Failure of the Depth Perception test has never been a diagnosis of an impaired distance/depth discerning ability hindering or obstructing ability to perform, the DP test failure is nothing more than a possibility indicator a potential undiagnosed or developing asymptomatic condition or an intentionally being hidden from the medical examiner medical problem existing that must be ruled out.

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#53749 - Thu Apr 15 2010 15:10 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: Yukon]
usmcCCTwnb Offline
New Member

Registered: Tue Apr 13 2010
Posts: 6
Loc: Georgia
I have strabismus but I have 20/15 vision both eyes, I was worried about the depth perception mainly...but is strabismus a disqualifier as I am prior service Marine Corps Infantry and it is all documented with the DOD in my records? As always thankyou for the information!

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#53750 - Thu Apr 15 2010 15:46 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: usmcCCTwnb]
Yukon Online   content

Operator
*****

Registered: Wed Mar 14 2001
Posts: 927
Loc: Anchorage AK, USA
The applicable standard appears to be:

Quote:
6.44.8.2. Flying Class I, IA, II; and Flying Class III crewmembers required to perform scanner duties (see classification guide). If any of these are exceeded, then 6.44.11 applies. Note: For the purposes of this AFI, scanner duties are defined by the requirement to assist with safety clearance checks of their aircraft from outside obstacles, within 200 meters.
...
6.44.8.2.6. History of extraocular muscle surgery or strabismus therapies is disqualifying and requires complete evaluation of ocular motility by a competent eye care professional to look for residual heterophorias, heterotropias (including microtropias), and motor sensory problems. Paragraph 6.44.11 applies.
6.44.11. Depth Perception/Stereopsis simply states all will be tested, it gives no indication of what is an impairment that hinders or prevents ability to accomplish duties or tasks. Consequently you would need a decision from AETC/SG concerning if your condition requires a waiver and if so what can be waivered or not waivered. Insufficient info is disclosed in policy references for me to offer a more concise answer. If a waiver is required it will be for the medical condition strabismus and not depth perception.

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#53753 - Thu Apr 15 2010 16:38 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: Yukon]
usmcCCTwnb Offline
New Member

Registered: Tue Apr 13 2010
Posts: 6
Loc: Georgia
Roger, well at least now I can continue to pursue it,I googled the definitions of those terms and of course I am no eyecare professional it seems these do not apply, I will bring a copy of this to my eye doctor next week to get a more detailed professional opinion as I know my condition will need to be reviewed as it was upon my first enlistment and a waiver was granted. My recruiter will not proceed any further with my paperwork as I have not yet recieved my DD214 due to separating very recently but hopefully this can be as simple as my first enlistment. Again I can not thank you and TE enough for your assistance with the info.

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#55398 - Thu Sep 09 2010 09:18 AM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: enigmadsm]
Persico88 Offline
New Member

Registered: Tue Dec 29 2009
Posts: 25
Loc: Pipeline
Received a phone call from Flight Medicine this morning an hour before my PAST test up here in Anchorage, Alaska. Well good news is that AETC received my IFC III and they have reviewed it. Bad news is that I am going to need a waiver for failing my Depth Perception. I stated earlier in one of my posts about depth perception not being a requirement for FY2010 1C2X1 but it is required per FCIII. FM said there is no reason why my waiver would get denied back up at AETC they just need some kind of record that it has been addressed. I really hope there is no problem with geting my waiver approved.

Deffinately the hardest part about cross training is your IFC III!!!
_________________________
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice the gift"
NFQ

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#55405 - Thu Sep 09 2010 11:38 AM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: enigmadsm]
Hydro Offline
New Member

Registered: Tue Aug 10 2010
Posts: 14
Loc: FE Warren AFB, WY
good luck man.. i was sweating mad bullets when i took my depth perception test lol i had my head pressed up against that machine staring at those damn circles for about 20 minutes. anyway yeah my class III took about 4 months or so to complete? then again i had to call everyday to make sure these guys were doing their job which half the time they werent

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#55765 - Fri Oct 08 2010 10:19 AM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: enigmadsm]
Persico88 Offline
New Member

Registered: Tue Dec 29 2009
Posts: 25
Loc: Pipeline
Well for the others that are still worried about DP for entry to CCT, heres an update about my case and story.

I got waivered by my local Flight Med clinic, They had then sent my waiver to the MAJCOM level (AETC). My waiver was approved for retraining into Combat Control with having defective DP later that day. Submitted my package in late September and found out 1 October that I was selected and approved for crosstraining.

Part II to my case and story...

I had posted early in this thread about why TACP has to have DP and CCT doesnt for entry into the career fields and eligibility for JTAC training... Well I am out TDY to Nellis AFB and our TDY hanger just happens to be right next to the USAF JTAC school. I went over yesterday and spoke to a MSgt who runs the course and I had ran the question by him about me being selected for retraining into CCT and that I didnt have depth perception and that I wanted to be cert'd and qual'd in JTAC duties but knew that TACP and CCT both go to that same course and was unsure if depth perception was needed or not because of the mandatory requirement of DP for TACP. He stated that if I was approved for retraining for CCT then I was approved additional duties as well.


So I guess the question remains then; If CCT and TACP both go to the same JTAC course then why does TACP have to have DP and CCT doesnt?
_________________________
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice the gift"
NFQ

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#55769 - Fri Oct 08 2010 17:39 PM Re: ? about depth perception [Re: enigmadsm]
Yukon Online   content

Operator
*****

Registered: Wed Mar 14 2001
Posts: 927
Loc: Anchorage AK, USA
Originally Posted By: Persico88

So I guess the question remains then; If CCT and TACP both go to the same JTAC course then why does TACP have to have DP and CCT doesnt?
No question remains, only somebody with weak reading comprehension that likes to keep asking the same question over and over.

What is the normal depth perception standard that describes adequate sufficient depth perception to do TACP or CTT core skill tasks to include JTAC duties and if this standard exists what establishes the point of impaired depth perception that is disqualifying?

Example: the must meet vision standard is 20/70 uncorrected vision, correctable to 20/20 each eye, acuity worse than this requires a waiver. Again there is no disqualifying impaired depth perception standard, only a pass/fail test standard. The test failure does not mean inadequate or insufficient depth perception. It does mean something potentially is causing the test failure that is a medical disqualification. The disqualification is failure of the test until other ailments of concern that might be causing to test failure are ruled out.

The answer is the same answer I have been giving for many years. There is no such depth perception disqualifying standard because the DP test only tests a very small part of depth perception for purpose of screening for other medical conditions that are medically disqualifying. If you got a DP test failure waiver for approved retraining into CCT you were approved for the additional duties as the MSgt informed you.

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