So how many guys are making it out in the past few classes, and if there's one going on, what week are they in, and how many have dropped?

I just talked to a guy here who going back next week and joining the current class at week 4. He was saying that a few recent classes had 20 or so make it and 7 in another.

7?! man that's insane.

[]7?! man that's insane. [/]
or proof the instructors are not willing to comprimise standards.

I'm pretty tough, and I can meet most if not all of the standards now, and my assumption is that, so are the other sixty guys going into the class with me, otherwise why even sign for the job. Or are there usually just a bunch of clowns that want to say they are gonna be special operations and know they probly don't have a chance.

As a mere wannabe, I want to stay in bounds here - but I'd be hesitant to call anyone who's made it to indoc 'clowns' in that sense. At bare minumum, everyone there has inevitably spent a reasonable amount of time and energy getting prepared to get where they are. I see indoc as a 'holy ground' for the relatively few who are willing to subject themselves to the honorable undertaking...but maybe that's just me.

[]I'm pretty tough, and I can meet most if not all of the standards now, and my assumption is that, so are the other sixty guys going into the class with me, otherwise why even sign for the job. Or are there usually just a bunch of clowns that want to say they are gonna be special operations and know they probly don't have a chance. [/]

Physical toughness does not always equate mental toughness. Make it through, and you can comment on the folks that quit.

It wouldn't be special, if everyone could do it.....

Oh I give, I know I don't know everything and I understand that those who have quit, did so with a lot more expierience than me, but it still doesn't change the fact that they quit, my question was why, well actually who? Was there a type of guy that quit more than others that those who have been through it noticed? Did guys with tattoos make it more than those with out, or did guys who were quiet make it where guys that always yelled "Ballz XX" dropped? I was trying to figure out who Pararescuemen are for the most part. They don't seem to be overly flashy or self indulgent people. I was wondering if those assumptions are correct.

"Physical toughness does not always equate mental toughness."

As an athlete I would argue that physical toughness and mental toughness do not differ from eachother. The winner's trophies and medals are not won through his physical prowess alone but through the determination and the strength of mind it takes to become physically tough in the first place. One inherently creates the other.

Physical toughness = confidence. Athletes perform because they are confident in their abilities. When abilities and confidence are tested, mental toughness is what gets a person through. Case-and-point, go on a ruck run. Even the most physically fit reach a breaking point where only mental fortitude will get them through. A person's legs will always perform more than is originally thought. Other examples - underwaters/ten-ups/long swims.
Agreed though, it sure does help to be physically fit and tough.

[]Was there a type of guy that quit more than others that those who have been through it noticed? Did guys with tattoos make it more than those with out, or did guys who were quiet make it where guys that always yelled "Ballz XX" dropped? I was trying to figure out who Pararescuemen are for the most part. They don't seem to be overly flashy or self indulgent people. I was wondering if those assumptions are correct. [/]
Slim or Muscular, Inked or not Inked, Cocky or Modest. There's your profile of someone who makes it. Everyone's different and has there own reasons for being there. Worry about why you want it and focus on making it. Not on the who, what, where and why of others who made it.

I know that, I'm not gonna go out and get tattoos or become more or less cocky as a tactic to excell in the course. It was a question, about what you noticed about the men who call themselves PJs. I mentioned it because I read a book in which the author follows a group of SEAL trainees through BUD/S and at thier graduation he says that the men who made it, have no tattoos and speak with out a great amount of attempt to gain attention to themselves. I wondered what kind of men make it into the PJ career field, not as a future trainee but as an interested spectator. I'm sorry if my question was posed in the wrong way, or more over in the wrong place, I was just curious.

I quit ballz01. It was the hardest thing I did. I thought I was as prepared as I needed to be but there is no such thing. Indoc is the hardest school. I worked for a year and a half just to get there and when I did I ended up quitting. I never showed up with the intention of quiting. I was going to make it but oh well. If I can Give anyone any advice or help please ask. Oh yeah, work on alternate water con if you want to help yourself.

The bottom line is there is really no way to tell if a guy will make it or not...as I've said before, we had physical animals that could crush the numbers, but still quit (usually in the water)...we had a couple guys that one would think had no chance at all that made it...

Although there is a link between physical and mental toughness, there is also a point where it makes no difference...and men are pushed farther and harder than they could ever push themselves...day after day after day...that is where the "true" mental toughness come in...

Forget about pass rates and the "who makes it" questions...prepare physically as best you can, and be prepared to be tested...and always remember, it's not the instructors that select the individuals that pass...its the individuals themselves...

Eventhough I am new I will throw my two cents in you are wasting time and energy on this subject knowing what breaks someones else is not going to help YOU. If you ask me you can always build on the physical strength but having a lot of heart and being willing to work as a team really helps. Being in top physical shape helps because it prolongs the mental games your body begins when you are fatigued. So throw a pack on go for a 10 miler and get used to the water.. Nooner

[] I'm pretty tough, and I can meet most if not all of the standards now, and my assumption is that, so are the other sixty guys going into the class with me, otherwise why even sign for the job. Or are there usually just a bunch of clowns that want to say they are gonna be special operations and know they probly don't have a chance.



[/]
Just to piggy back on that - everyone has a bad day. 10 weeks of training - I bet you have taken a day or two off in 2 and a half months of your own personal PT regiment. How bout now breaks at all. Meet the standards - or find a new job. 100% of the people who go to the 342 TRS are volunteers who at one point or another wanted to do something above and beyond the normal call of duty. The
Cadre there and along the pipeline are there to remove any doubt about your intentions or remove you. It is the student's responsibility to come together as a team as no person alone could make it. The "clowns" as you put them are the people who take the attitude that it is a solo effort and look down upon their teamates intentions. If someone fails, you had better be sure that you did everything in your power as a team to prevent it. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink - but remember to lead them, because along the way you may find yourself thirsty and looking for water yourself.

A lot of things can and do happen at Indoc. Is every single cone that shows up for the first day meeting final grad requirements??? No. As a matter of fact I would say NOBODY who shows up can meet every single grad standard (you've never participated in full harrassment buddy breathing with Sgt Pack & Sgt Warren). Just because I can go out and run sub 6 minute miles for five miles at the local track or do 5 underwaters at 1:30 minute intervals at the community pool where I train doesn't mean that I'll be able to fly through the course. Many things start happening as you routinely punish your body and operate on limited sleep and rest. You start to slowly break down and become more prone to injuries and illness (respitory infections, pneaumonia, etc). As a result of your body growing more tired and having less recovery time, your mind and confidence can wain. You might have felt like a hundred bucks the day you showed up, felt even better after gearing up during prep team, but somewhere along the line your body WILL begin to give in to the overwhelming stress. This, in my humble opinion, is the "moment of truth" for so many at the course. This is where I believe grads & future PJ's are made or broken. Who cares what your three mile run time was when you showed up or that you could pump out 95 push-ups in two minutes. At this point I would bet that you will start to feel the pressure. How you deal with it is the question that every cone has to answer at this point. These guys probably showed up thinking they had as good a shot as any of the other guys to make it through. They were confident, well prepared, and ready. Things happen and it's impossible to tell who will make it through. This might upset some people, but some of it is luck (by this I simply mean proper preparation meeting opportunity). Is it unlucky that someone pulls a hammy or rolls their ankle...yes. Would that person have made it through if the incident hadn't occured...maybe not. Sometimes it's not the biggest, baddest, fastest dude who graduates. I've seen the quiet guy who is 5'7" and 145 who looks like he got picked on in high school (and possibly gets picked on at Indoc!!!) make it through and leave many others scratching their heads. TE has stated several times that it is impossible to tell who makes it through, and I completely agree. I do, however, notice a slight trend in the average grad...he is usually not the loud guy who comes flying out of the gate the first several weeks of prep team and then fades in the fourth or fifth week, he has a quiet but very strong sense of self, you usually never hear this guy chattering on and on about himself and all of his high school exploits (he is an outstanding team player), and he is steady under pressure. Sorry so long TE. I won't ever be a PJ but I've been through the course (a couple times) and feel that I can make just as good an observation as anybody else. Hope this helps those gonnabes out there.

Nobody has ever passed Indoc, but a few have managed to survive through it. It took me two teams to get thru Indoc, my first team I was eliminated due to a neck/spinal injury and I was never able to fully recover. I came back home and maintained my training as was able to survive my second team. You always hear that guy that says he is fully prepared that he will never quit, but ask him that after about an hour of alternate water con and see what he says? Probably nothing because that guy is no longer present and not part of the team anymore. See in my experience I could do the final eval standards before even showing up to Indoc. But like others have said, there is no way to explain or train what one experiences during the course. Sure you can train on alternate water con, or do a 100M underwater with no problem. But you add some sharks to the water and increased stress/pressure and this paints a different picture. I have often tried to give advice or explain how the course is. One will never fully understand what Indoc is unless you have attempted to give it a whirl for yourself. It is by far the most difficult physical thing I have done in my life personally. However dont take your personal training lightly, make sure that you train and train hard before even showing up. Indoc is not designed for instructing students, youre just tossed in the water and told to sink or swim. There is slight instruction if time permits but being fully prepared will give you a slight advantage as to one who is going into the course blind. Good luck to everyone going to the school house!

MO

Going through the new and improved CCT pipeline I saw the whole spectrum of trainees. There were guys at the beginning who seemed like they had no shot, but ended up making it. There were guys who excelled, then one really long night in the woods broke them down, they quit and stunned everyone. The interesting thing about the CCT pipeline was the way training got progressively harder. By the time you were at CCS, some guys had been a cone for over a year. That guy who at the beginning seemed weak had become "hard by default." After over a year of mental and physical challenges they became hard headed, and just took whatever was thrown at them. Moving on to AST when a different kind of evil was brought on us, we dealt with it. It was almost comical as we got abused in the pool the attitude was, "come on, if we were gonna quit we would have done it by now."
My point, to answer the original question, the guys who make it know 100% that no matter what they will do what it takes to make it. The guys who didn't make it didn't have that "no matter what" attitude. That to me is the point of the training. STS needs operators that will do what it takes no matter what. No trends in tattoos or hair color or age or anything besides that attitude.

you either make it or you don't

Roughly what percentage of Indoc grads end up making it through the pipeline and graduating as PJ's?

One would assume that if you can make it through Indoc you can easily make it through any of the rest of schools, at least from a fitness and mental toughness perspective.

[]Roughly what percentage of Indoc grads end up making it through the pipeline and graduating as PJ's?

One would assume that if you can make it through Indoc you can easily make it through any of the rest of schools, at least from a fitness and mental toughness perspective. [/]

from what I understand the medical portion of the pipeline is quite challenging. So it takes more than just brawn to get through

I think if they knew who was going to make it through or not they wouldn't have such a high SIE rate.

My prepteam starts this week and honestly I've stopped worrying about how many made it last time all I can think about is me making it this time.

EVERYONE needs to read the post from "SPWARREN".

The pass / fail rates mean absolutely nothing. The "odds" of anyone...anyone...making it through Indoc are based totally on their own willingness to succeed. Not one other person has the ability to "get someone through" or make it easier or harder other than yourself. If you want it bad enough and have the "heart" you will succeed...if you have another option (ie the bizzare Post on "going to Med School if I don't make it...") you will not succeed. There can be no other options if you want to get through Indoc. No matter what the task...no matter what is asked of you...you WILL only succeed if YOU...yep YOU...give your full attention and 100+ percent to completeing the evolution.

Any advice from anyone who has not BTDT in Indoc and COMPLETED THE COURSE, is pure bulls**t and should be discarded for what it is. They did not make it through so how can they possibly know what it takes to complete the course? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

YOU have total control over your fate at Indoc... YOU!...noone else! For those of you who think the Cadre' do...remember... their job is to select and to prepare, NOT to eliminate...only the individual can do that...either through SIE or not completeing the evolution to the standards set forth. The Mission of Pararescue determines the standards and requirements...not someones opinion...

Now...put everything on the line...find your "heart" and do it!

NFQ...always...NFQ!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />