Hello! I am hoping you can shed some light on a few things I am hearing, but, I am having problems getting confirmation on. My husband will be entering the 04-004 class. I have a fellow wife whose husband is graduating from INDOC and starting SCUBA in April, who was told that they may not be PCS'd to Kirtland until they get a date for the paramedic course and the next course is March 05. Since then I learned that after Scuba they go back to Lackland to PCS to Kirtland and it usually is 6-9 months before the start of thier paramedic class. Could you please try to clarify how the PCS to Kirtland works. Second, I learned that there is a chance of passes on the weekends during INDOC. Is this accurate? Are they regular passes or spur of the moment? We have a two year old son and live close enough that I can drive in at least once during INDOC. Do you suggest a visit or do you feel that they are really busy and a visit would be an unneeded distraction? Thank you for your time.

I just recently graduated on the last class at indoc so i should be able to provide you with the most up to date info. Im assuming your spouse is a cross-trainee so all the info im posting is going off that. First off on the PCS thing. You must graduate scuba before you can PCS to Kirtland, and it was told to us graduating that we are supposed to have a Paramedic slot before getting our orders. BUT, most of us have received our Kirtland orders already, and the one that didnt just recently received his after talking to the pipeline manager before indoc graduation. Typically an indoc grad will PCS to Kirtland 15-30 days after their scuba grad date.
As for the weekend passes, it is next to impossible to get those granted. The people that handle them are very unprofessional and like to make life miserable for as many of the trainees as possible. But i would recommend visiting on the weekends once or twice during the course to help keep his spirits high.

My husband is not crosstraining, he is in BMT now. Although, the person I talked to before is the wife of a gentleman who was crosstraining and graduated INDOC on Friday. Thank you for the information and the advise on visiting. Another wife whose husband is with mine and I are planning on making the drive together. (Even if we can only see them for a few hours) Am I correct in assuming that becasue our husbands are not crosstraining...they will be sent back to Lackland after SCUBA and PCS from there aprox 30 days later? Again the information from both people like you and this site really helps.

I would recommend this unprofessionalism be brought to the attention of the right people...if someone wants to make life miserable for PJ trainees...it better be a PJ instructor...if it is not, the PJ instructors need to be made aware of it.

You also have to remember that trainees' safety is regarded HIGHLY among the brass. They're not gonna just hand out weekend passes to PJ trainees. Enough regular AF students get into enough trouble with DUI's, underage drinking, fights downtown, and other 15's. Seeing as how your in a selection course for one of the most intense training courses in the military, you need to be grounded. Losing people because they SIE'd, FTT's, failed an eval, or got injured while training is already detrimental (spelling?). But losing people because they went out and did something stupid and hurt themselves, or got arrested is unacceptable and for the most part preventable. They want to have you safeguarded 24/7. Granted, there are people who just want to spend time with their family. But unfortunately there are also people who want to go out and just party, which isn't a bad thing. It's just there's a time and a place for everything. They're only looking out for your (and the AF's) best interest. You have to remember, even high ranking officers on Team have rules and curfews.

Again, thank all of you for the information. In referring to a 'weekend' pass, I should have clarified. On the weekend do they have down time, which they would be able to spend with the family if we were to visit (even if it is just a day pass)? I live driving distance and can easily make plans or cancel plans at the last moment. If it were just my husband and I, I would suck it up and not even ask until he called from there and gave me the information, but, I have a son and it is easier on me as a parent to get as much information as possible.

Boddah – I agree that they do need to look out for the safety of their investment and realize that all have to follow the same rules. Thankfully, we left those days behind us when we left college. A few hours at the park on base, if permitted, would be well worth the drive.

If all goes well, usually they get the weekend off. Unless of course someone does get into trouble, then they might be "called into work." But that's not that often. On the weekends, he'll be free durring the day, but will still have a curfew.

Ma'am,
I understand your desire to visit your husband and your concern about distracting him or supporting him when you visit. None of us here know the personality dynamic between you and your spouse or how he reacts to the stress Indoc puts on a Trainee. You will have to talk to him about it. Some men take strength from seeing their families and resolve to never quit. Others use the family as an excuse to quit or come to realize that the time away from home once on a team will be too great(the former happens more than the latter). You will have to talk to him about this when he gets a chance to call/write.
I think it is great that you support him and have an opportunity to visit him. He will be going through the toughtest part of his life soon and your support could make all the difference. On the other hand, he has to rely on his own inner strength to make it through and nobody can help him do that.

Guard MC,
Thank you for the way you eloquently explained the situation. I guess sometimes it takes someone else pointing it out to see what is right in front of your face. I am ashamed to say that I had not considered us there a stress factor instead of a distraction, but, I do understand how that could be the case. I feel that we have a strong relationship and I am okay with whatever choice he makes. I cannot stress enough how reading what those of you who have been there have to say makes his time away easier on me.

[]I would recommend this unprofessionalism be brought to the attention of the right people...if someone wants to make life miserable for PJ trainees...it better be a PJ instructor...if it is not, the PJ instructors need to be made aware of it. [/]

The instructors know about the ongoing problems but theres not a lot they can do. They eagerly want a CRO to come to Lackland to deal with MTL/dorm management problems. Things have really gotten out of hand down there, complete with all out lying to officers and instructors and abuse of power.

We are having the same exact problem here at our schoolhouse. It seems to be a widespread MTL issue. They love to make life miserable for the stud's.....We are constantly working the issue. Sad, but true!

I intend to look into this problem.

I hear you guys on the MTL question. My opinion is that Blue Ropes should not make the decision on Phases/Week end passes. If they must due to some AETC rule, they should talk to the PJ or CCT Cadre first.
Selection Schools/Indoc, and CCS/PJ School are high stress environments in which the Trainee is being pushed and evaluated by experienced Operators. Stress is applied and released as the Instructors see the need. The student's every move is being watched and evaluated by an Operator who knows what it takes to make it and has the experience to judge each student's performance. Week end passes and off base priveledges are a part of the stress application/stress relief process and should be left up to the Instructors who know the students. Most MTLs simply do not interact with students enough to know their capabilities, maturity, personality, and performance enough to know whether a student has earned a week end pass and has the maturity to handle it.
If MTLs are not working with Instructors, as Air To Mud states, then the system is broken and needs to be fixed.

On another note, you can argue that any good NCO can determine if a student has earned a week end pass or not. This may be true, IF that NCO has the necessary knowledge of the situation. The nature of most training in the pipeline means that the real action is often unobserved by the MTL. In this case, a good NCO will talk to other NCOs who HAVE observed the situation. Again leading to the fact that if an MTL is making the decision on week end passes, etc he should be talking to the PJ or CCT Cadre when making this decision.
If some MTLs lack the experience or maturity to make a good call on this issue or they actually enjoy using their postion to make things tougher on their charges, then the PJ/CCT Cadre need to talk to the MTL. If that is not enough, they need to take it up their chain of command.
I was fortunate to have some pretty good MTLs in my training and only had one Blue Rope that I felt was irresponsible or immature. By and large, I think most MTLs do a pretty good job.

Guard MC,

I agree with what you have posted and it is true that the Cadre has much more time with the trainees. I know when one of my students has been acting like a knucklehead and needs to stay in the dorms for the weekend on Phase I. I see them every morning at 0600 for PT and in class all day. The MTL's have their time once a week every Tuesday at 1500. Granted, they do a good job and usually contact an Instructor when something comes up. Our Schoolhouse has come a long way as far MTL & Cadre relationships go. Sometimes it becomes an issue of an MTL wanting to be king and be the one that deals with all the student issues, unfortunately they have no idea of what the students are really going through, as the Cadre does. Most of what the MTL's are doing is what we call an "AETC'ism" coming form the senior staff at AETC having no idea of what type of training we are conducting or the amount of stress a student may be experiencing.