I am trying to run at least 30 minutes a day 4-5 times a week (about 4 miles per session) and find that if I run more than about 3 times a week my shins begin to bother me. It's not incapasitating, just a concern. I should get word on my retraining package in a few months and I want to be ready when I go to indoc. My question is this...is there anything I can do to relieve the pain or do I need to just suck it up, also is it normal for most of the guys at indoc. to have some shin pain? Any comments will be greatly appreciated.

GF1,

You will have plenty of opportunities to suck it up at Indoc, train smarter don't suck it up now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> What I mean by that is if you suck it up now you could damage yourself, maybe even permentally. I'm not saying if you feel alittle pain you have to stop working out or running. Because some pain is always going to be there no matter what you do. Everyone knows their own limitations, it is the Cadres job to push you over that limit and see what you are capable of. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> So do what feels right to you and remember to rest two week prior to going to Indoc. If your shin are in chronic pain STOP running for one week and ICE! After that start off slooooooow 1 mi, two days later 1 1/2 mi. What I suggest you do is ice them every night for 30 min and do shin exercises like i.e. writing your ABC's while you lay in bed or do shin lifts. Shin lifts helped me out alot and in case you've never heard of them, here you go. First you start off be sitting on a bench and grapping a dumb bell between your feet. Put your heels of your feet on the edge and move up and down. Do what your desire on reps and add it to your leg workout. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

What ever happened to that thread a while back where the guy said to take Tums before running? Heck, I started taking them just to not jinx myself. Someone also suggested taping your legs helps a great deal. Could anyone clarify how the legs should be taped ?
Another good way to strengthen your lower legs (Calf/Tib) is to do light squats while trying to bend your toes to touch your knee. When you get close to the ground you can really feel it.

I searched for the thread also...appears it was lost with the server move...repost and discuss...

GF1,
Here's what worked for me. I was getting the pain you described with slightly less frequency, but it was there nevertheless. A post further down mentioned the light squats. You can also do some seated squats, calf raises, and foot rotations(at the ankle, rotate the full range of motion of your foot). I don't know enough about physiology to explain, but by doing varying forms of these exercises, I was able to strengthen the muscles in my lower legs enough to get past it. It doesn't hurt that you build big calves this way either. Best wishes.

Shin splints, are a beast. I recently developed them, actually about 2 months ago. I took 2 weeks off.

During those two weeks when I was GTG, I would sit on a chair, place my toes under the back of the couch, and do 4 sets of raises.

With the two weeks off, and the strengthening, I have had no problem on the last 2 runs. Both were moderately paced, at 2.5mi.

Take some rest, while you are, strengthen them. Ice helps quite a bit also.

Justin

I had a problem with shin splints for awhile and I did the shin excersies and what not. It helped, but they were still there. I finally bought a new pair of shoes and they went away. So, it maybe that the shoes that you're wearing are starting to wear out and not give you the support that you need. Or if they are new, it might be that they don't fit your feet well.

slow down...run at a slower pace...regardless of your ego...most of the time you should feel very relaxed...I am willing to bet you are "trying" to hard, to often....Patience!!!!

Ice massage your shin after every run

It's got to be the shoes bro the shoes.......I'm not sure what the name of the store was/is. But about 3yrs ago when I was at Indoc, the cadre would take us to go buy shoes after motivation week "HELL WEEK" as we liked to call it. The people there knew what they were talking about. Of course, they had to give me a pair that looked like one of the spice girls shoes w/a thick a$$ soles on them. Thank GOD they weren't glasses. I got a pair of "N" still remember the # like it was yesterday 1160 and they were wonderful on my feet, I increased my times or drop however you want to look at it dramatically and I didn't get one shin splint after that, w/icing of course.

Changing shoes help me alot, so much so that I won't buy that brand again. (Adidas if you were wondering. If you want to get a good pair of shoes you can usually find a good shoe store in your city that is a Running shoe store. Footlocker doesn't cut it. The people there can really help you pick out a pair of shoes. Another thing that you might want to try is an online Shoe store. I'm pretty sure that this is the URL Road Runner but I'm not 100% sure and I will repost tonight when I am definate. They allow you to try the shoes and if you don't like them to return them within 30 days.

I think my post about ice baths got lost but here is the jist of it. All you need is a tub cold water and a couple bags of ice. Combine the ice and water until the temp. is about 37 degrees then submerge your lower extremities into the water for about 5 to 7 minutes. Don’t worry it will stop stinging when you go numb. Some people have said to go longer but I have never done it myself so I won’t recommend it. After you get out walk around until you feel normal blood flow back into your legs. This method of icing has worked wonders for many of my former soccer and cross country teammates shin and ankle problems. I’ll say again that they are a few variations to this, but this one has worked for me and many others and I know it is safe.

Greenfeet1: While all these are great answers and solutions to shin splints, my advice is look at your shoes. Get yourself a new pair of shoes ASAP. While the ones you have now my be comfortable, I can almost garentee that new shoes would help.

Take it from someone that had some of the worst shin splints known to modern man. They were terriable. I did most of what has been posted (except the TUMS....I'll have to remember that) and a couple other things, like streaching and streaching and streaching. But when I got new shoes, the splints more or less have vanished. I can tell though when it's time to get new shoes, because the splints come back.

Everyone is different and reacts to treatment differently. This worked for me. Hope it helps.

11Zulu, you suggested slowing down. As I read that, I realized my splints only kick in when I do sprinting Workouts. I know I would avoid the splints if I didn't do the sprinting, but my times will probably suffer as a result. I guess I'm answering my question as I'm asking it, but I was trying to see if someone has come up with a formula that worked for them between Long Slow and sprinting Workouts.

Thanks.

-nardi

11Z - What is your weekly base mileage? I think most of the running experts here would discourage intense sprinting Workouts until you've got your base mileage *high*. I'm more of a fan of the fartlek style of speed work. If you run on a track, adjust about 1-2 runs per week for tempo. Make every 4th lap at race pace OR run one straight away at race pace, etc. I do a little of this every run. It helps. You can slowly adjust to add more speed to your run (ie race pace on both straight sides of track or run every 3rd lap fast, etc.). Try this style of speed work until your base mileage is pretty high - THEN add a sprinting day. I really feel that tempo runs and this type of fartlek type running will provide much greater dividends than sprinting!

Without getting to complicated here...just slow down. Most people are not runners, and I mean that in a pure sense. They were not put here to run for running's sake. Not a big deal. Just slow down until you become one. For years I tried to "train" for a better time...pointless. I would get better, my shins would start to hurt, my shins would get splints or break. I would take time off, start over. Each time the results were worse than before. I got slower than before on the 2 mile time. I was damamging my body..chronically.

Read Galloway's book on running...voila'! Slow the hell down....get miles under my belt...enjoy running again...don't push to hard to often...a few months fly by...my knees, and shins do not hurt. My stride is relaxed, speed is easy to create.

ANSWER: I had to become a RUNNER. That means creating a base. Consitancy, persistancy, and patience gentlemen. That is it. Slow down and do it right or you will pay the price.

Week after week of intervals and speed work will not help you if you break yourself for months. I would rather be able to turn over 20min 3 mile times for 20 more years than an 18min once. I have paid a lot of money and a lot of time to rehab from bad "TRAINING". I suggest stop "TRAINING" and start "PREPARING".

PREPARING is a mental exercise and sense most of us do not have coaches to monitor and regulate our TRAINING, we have to quit doing this mindlessly. Most of us will push until we drop...it is a common mind-set in the military. The true discipline is to stop at self imposed limits and make HONEST assesments about where we are and what to do next. YOU ARE NOT SUPERMAN, YOU ARE NOT SPECIAL...YOUR BODY DOES NOT REGENERATE FASTER THAN EVERYBODY ELSE'S...IF YOU WERE A TRUELY GIFTED ATHELETE YOU WOULD NOT BE HERE....YOU ARE A MAN WHO WANTS TO BE THE ELITE IN THE MILITARY. SO ACT RESPONSIBLE AND DO NOT ABUSE YOURSELF BECAUSE "YOU WANT TO BE A ??? SO BAD, AND YOU WILL NEVER QUIT...BLAH...BLAH...BLAH"

Smarter not harder.

Take your time.

It should be noted that most of the people on this board will probably not have these issues running, but those who do, I would bet need to take the time to "become" runners.

Build mileage for a 3-6 months at a heart rate about 155 and rarely higher, then start adding in some intervals and speed if you need it. Many won't need much at that point because running will become an efficient exercise.

11Z - Well said...

By the way, my post below was directed at nardi, not you. Sorry!

I guess your post was asking me then, SA?

My base mileage is about 10 and the sprinting I'm talking about I guess isn't true sprinting; I'm actually timing myself on a track at the 3 mile and 4 mile distances. After each run (weekly) it KILLS right in between my calf and shin on the inside of my leg. I will take your advise and insert more fartleks (which don't hurt quite as much), since my speed is high enough to just barely pass muster in the 4 mile, just under 28 min. (Wouldn't hurt to be a lot faster though...)

Do you think I should eval on a 3 or 4 mile "sprint" less than once a week?

Thanks for the advice, and any more would be welcomed.

-nardi

It sounds to me like you might be rolling your foot Nardi. There are a lot of shoes out there that will help you correct that. I have the same problem, but in the opposite direction. You can also try more stretches and to be concisely aware of how your foot is landing and moving while you’re running.

Nardi...I am going to suggest you slow down and build a base....get to where you run 15-30 miles a week at a slow pace..HRT 155... for a few months ease up on the "sprinting"..i.e. "Tempo" running for a while...IT WILL NOT SLOW YOU DOWN. If anything it will help you develop the necessary adaption to handle more stress without crossing into the threshold of damage. Insoles, shoes, et all are only going to be band-aids. You must develop. 10 miles a week base? Not enough to be hammering down. You are begging for long term injuries.

As a former Speedskater and Infantry Officer I am telling you. Your base will save you. Without it you will be suseptable to injury. Intense training without the proper preparation is a road to failure...everytime.

here is a laundry list of lower leg injuries I have had when I did not prepare:

Achillies tendonitus (Speedskating OTC preparing for Olympic Trials in '94)
Plantar Fascitis (Speedskating)
Plantar Fascitis (Running college)
Ruptured Bursa (Running in pre-ranger)
Shin splints (10x) (Running college and Army)
Shin Fractures (Running in college)

Here is the list of injuries I have had when I spent the first few months preparing for strenous activity later in the season:


get the picture?

Special insoles and shoes will become a crutch when you are treading around in combat boots on an insert or meeting a time-hack needed for synchronization.

Pain is a teacher, learn from mine or yours.

SMARTER not HARDER,
Joey

poetry 11Z... just beautiful <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

11Z and 66, thanks so much for all your suggestions. I'm currently trying to adapt to the "smarter not harder" mindset, but sometimes getting in a sadistic "no pain no gain" sort of outlook.

I leave for basic/indoc on 27July, so until then I'll keep on building that base up (which, btw is 10 miles per run max. Per week on average I guess I log about 15-20. I misunderstood the question). Understood on the base mileage saving me. I guess I always want to have the kicks of a sprinter, but forget that they only go 100m before maxing.

Next step I suppose is to log/improve my base and concentrate on swimming/biking/rucking for less impact cardio exercises.

Thanks again for all your help!

-nardi

Nardi,

I get your concerns...I just worry about people that sound a lot like me as a younger man...hell me 8 months ago!!! As you can see I am a slow learner when grasping the concept that I am not super-human. The point is that an average guy in decent shape can run and hold 7 min miles. In college I got down to an 11:33 2-mile at 195 lbs. How?

Conditioning...plain and simple. Running enough to get better but easing up enough to not begin the injury process. This allows you to run hard as necessary and recover faster as you body is "tougher" or "more prepared" for the training. I can assure you that over-use injuries are a process and personalities that fight through the pain, as a daily activity, WILL GET HURT. You can keep it up for a while, like I did with Plantar Fascitus at Airborne School.

(I had a bad limp, my heel could not touch the ground on my left foot, so I "limped" on both feet. If they see you with a limp you are booted, but I just looked like an uncoordinated boob since I ran on my toes and crossed my eyes when I saw an Instructor. Can't be kicked out for being an idiot, plus as a Cadet they expected as much)

Running to the Airfeild was hell!!! Luckly, brute force and ignorance kept me running fast enough injured to get through the course. It would be 3-4 months after the course before I could run again. If I had any follow-on training, I would have been MED rolled.

Great for a 3 week course as easy as Airborne...not good for INDOC or any selection course.

So I wish you luck and suggest focusing on conditioning your heart and body, the speed will be their for you when you need it.

For a while now I've been hearing of "proper form" I know there is different form depending on your style of running. Honestly I'm not sure of the proper form for long distance running and no one has ever showed me before. What exactly is the correct way to run while going for distance? I know my form suffers, I feel like a sack of rocks when I run. Thank you.

~Tommy

Thanks for the encouragement 11z. I hope I'll be able to avoid some of the injuries you've gotten (or at the very least be able to sqeak by and limp through with the same injuries, which sounds much harder <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks for all the tips,
nardi

What's the thing with taking Tums?

Wasn't my post, but the thread was lost. This guy was giving out tums to SEALs before(i think) the run to counter lactic acid buildup. Something about absorbing the stomach acid there by causing it to resupply from other acid stores in the body. The guy who posted couldn't find the data from the conference he was at, so no HARD data. Also, I tried researching briefly to find anyone else using this method and came up short. But, being a superstitious athlete (not really), I've been taking them so I don't get jinxed. Plus,the extra calcium can't hurt since it's all about the bones anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Okay, I've never heard of that, but I'm willing to try almost anything. Almost <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Thanks!
Mike

I'm not real sure what Tums would actually do. Lactic Acid is absorbed into the blood and then filtered through the Liver. Sugar (Glucose) is broken down into Pyruvate and NADH (energy). The Pyruvate is turned into Lactate, then moved through the blood stream to the Liver where it is combined with O2 to remake Gluocose. Here is a chart of how it's done: Lactic Acid Chart

So I"m not sure how Tums would effect it at all.

You can also run backwards, it works the front and side muscles ( I can' tremember the medical name for them) like when you lift a weight. Looks kinda silly, but not as tedious as lifting a weight.
Mike

New info on the buffering of lactic acid. This article is not referencing shin splints, but it does address previous questions.
Taking sodium bicarbonate before exercise has been shown to delay acid build up in the body during exercise. This helps for short duration bursts (sprinting) where the glycogen production is flooding the blood stream with lactate making the body less efficient.

Full article:
http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/lactic.htm

Sodium Bicarbonate info:
http://www.mycustompak.com/healthNotes/Drug/Sodium_Bicarbonate.htm

That's interesting, I can see how they are saying that it would work. I"m just not sure that you could lower your acid level in your blood enough to make a big difference. Thanks Seraphim, I always like learning something new.

Be careful when you say 'lower' acid levels. The buffering is only going to DELAY acid build up because it gives the body something extra to absorb it with. The lactate is still going to build and finally shut you down, but it will take longer. So, if you were in a 400m race it could mean victory due to tolerance levels. But like the article said, be sure to check the regs to make sure you are not doping.

-late

I'll have to agree with Zulu on this one, shoes make all the difference. I'd advise going to a "specialized running" store and have them take a look at your feet. I had the same problem till I took the advice of a marathon runner friend of mine. Give it a shot and good luck...

A couple more hints --

1) run with loose shoe laces. Many people over tighten their laces which flatens out the foot. I've run lately with very loose laces across the top of the foot with good success.

2) If you have fallen arches, get some sports tape and wrap a line around the middle of your foot. Wrap from the outside of your foot, across your arch, to the top of the foot. This may help prevent your foot from flatening.

3) Mix some walking into your runs. I now walk for 0.5 mile before I start my jog. I jog for 2, run fast for 1, then walk another 0.5 mile. Then I do some slow jogging to cool down or round out my mileage. I walk again as a cool down.

Seems to work...

$ 0.02

There are many good suggestions here on dealing with Shin Splints. The best method is, of course, to have the right shoes followed by not over training. Some runners, especially those who run on thier toes/forefoot are still prone to shin splints. For pipeliners, you may not have the choice of lowering your mileage to recover.
Here is a simple exercise that works in most cases in just three to four days.
1 Sit on the ground as if performing a sit up: your back can be flat on the ground or in the upright position. Feet are together at heel and toe.
2 Have a buddy provide resistance by holding your toes down.
3 Keeping your heels on the ground, pivot your toes and forefoot as far as possible against your buddies resistance. Your buddy should let your toes move up slowly so that it takes you 2-3 seconds to raise your toes/forefoot fully.
4 Perform 10-20 repetitions, 2-3 sets prior to each run. If the pain is more to the inside of the shin, keep the heels together but face the toes outwoard at about a 30-45 degree angle. If the pain is in the outer shin, keep the toes together and point the heels out. (You should still lift the toes/forefoot, not the heels)
5 Ice down shins after each run. A simple method is to fill a Dixie cup half way and put it in the freezer. Pull the Dixie cup out of the freezer, tear the paper enough to reveal the ice, and run the ice up and down the affected area until ice is melted. Repeat on other leg.
6 Keep this up until pain goes away. Continue for an additional 2-3 days. Repeat if pain returns.
This exercise works by strengthening the shin muscles at their origin(attachment) so that they do not fray or tear any more. If symptoms persist after 2-3 weeks, get an MRI to see if you have Stress Fractures.

Wouldn't it be better to do the strength exercises after the run? Seems like you wouldn't want to have them fatigued before you start hitting the pavement. I'm no expert, just asking.

It is not just new shoes that are important, but the corect type of footwear for your type of foot. Pronator, neutral or supinator (forefoot and hindfoot for each) will determine what type of shoe you wear, and if you need orthotics to provide motion control.

CK

Slow down has two meanings as I am describing it...

1. slow down as in speed

2. slow down as in attitude toward running...there is no rush that will help if all you do is hurt yourself.

Base milage needs to be done...nothing wrong with taking 3 months and dedicating it to milage.

you will not loose much speed if you do not loose fitness by taking say.... a 3 month break...even then the speed side is less important than the benefits of running injury free.

After doing 3 months of milage I have started speed/interval work and shorter faster runs to much improvement and pain free. I can actually run hard enough to vomit after several intervals...This is a big deal because my shins would hurt so bad before, that I could not run fast enough for enough time to push into the realm of truely challenging Workouts occasionally...that is of course except for lots of mileage.

A great feeling to be sucking from effort and not a limp.

I did the Galloway program for 10k in 44 min with no speedwork...now I am doing the 5k in 22 min with the speedwork...hopefully after that I will be doing the ATC PT program.


consitancy, persitancy, patience