holy crap! i just ran for the first time on a treadmill the other day, and boy what a weird feeling when i got off that thing... i think i'm going to go get some sweatpants and go back outside, it's getting chilly here.

it's got to be psychological, no?

Yeah, I can't stand treadmills. I think that (once you're used to them) they can give you a false sense of performance. You may be able to run a treadmill-3-miles in 21 minutes, but I think that a 3-mile run on the road would result in a slower time for the treadmill trained runner.

Anyway, shame on you for even considering going inside for your runs in ABQ! A few hundred miles from the artic circle here, and I still consider treadmills to be "of the devil". Get outside...

(Why is this in the Stump the Chump forum; is this an actual question?)

I think everybody would admit that tredmills are second to outdoor running. However, it's not that the treadmill gives you a false sense of speed. What the treadmill does is control your speed. When you are running at a six minute pace every 440 will be 1:30. On streets or a track you dont keep your pace the same. If you run on a treadmill you run more consistent not faster. If you can run the speed on the treadmill you can no doubt run the same speed on a track for the OL-H evals. The trick is getting into and learning your pace. Depending where you live you may not always have the option to run outside. Right now I am in Wyoming at 5,400 ft. asl and there are times it is not possible to make your run outside. The bottom line is however fast you can run on a treadmill you can run on an even surface, it's just harder to to do if you dont have a firmly rooted pace.

I've often wondered if running on a treadmill was better, worse, or no different than running outside. I truly believe that overall it's easier on the treadmill, mainly because as your foot makes contact with the machine, it is being pulled backwards by the treadmill, whereas on the road your leg is lifting and forcing your body forward. In other words, on the road your leg is propelling your body forward of your foot, on the treadmill your foot is being propelled backwards by the machine. Therefore, less work. However, I agree that the even pace means that you are forced to run hard every pace, regardless of if you want to, which may wear you out more. Also, no breeze against your face because of no forward movement kinda sucks as well, all that stale hot air around your body can make a treadmill run pretty tough. I have seen some very, very good runners (age group winner-types) who regularly train on the treadmill, but I believe it's more for form and use of the incline than anything else.
Later
NE

I agree with NE. I just recently read a study about treadmills vs. regular running. They say to most closely resemble running on your own is to set the treadmill at an incline of 1 to 3 percent depending on your preference. Sure running outside is better, but the treadmill is a great tool to integrate into your workout to ensure a little variety.

Comrades, Some random Treadmill notes:

-NE hit on an important point in a round about way. When running on a treadmill, you are in fact keeping up with the machine and when your foot strikes it is in fact carried back for you. If you were actually pushing more than the machine you would run into the control bar. In other words, you are not recruiting the muscles required to generate forward thrust. Many who rely on a treadmill for winter running find this out the hard way in the spring. The imbalance created can be difficult to overcome as you are well conditioned to get your legs out in front, ie. good turn over rate, but the push is sadly lacking. Just be sure to get back outside as soon as possible.

-Several recent studies have been done to evaluate all of the fitness machines out there. Nordic Track, stair steppers, ab rollers, etc... The results were bleak. According to the results, published in Muscle Media, Muscle and Fitness, and several Sport Science Journals, the only fitness machine that actually worked as advertised and worth your money was the Treadmill. I'm sure Suzanne Summers isn't happy about that!

-Yes, inclining the treadmill 1-3 or 1-5 degrees will dramatically aid in overall developement.

-Any why isn't this in the PT Running Forum?

It would seem to me that the laws of relativity would contradict the idea that the treadmill is easier because it pulls your legs back for you. When you are running at an even pace (not accelerating) and your foot contacts the ground, the ground pulls your foot back because it is moving under your in the same manner as the treadmill. The difference in difficulty may be accounted for by perhaps a combination of difference in wind resistance and center of gravity.

Com. Osinskird,

Haven't seen you for a few weeks, welcome back! On the treadmill: Different, not exactly easier. I think thats probably a better way to say it. It works/recruits the muscles in a different manner leading to a slightly different training effect depending on the program the runner is on and the rest of his/her training routine. Something to be aware of.

I have been running on a treadmill for about a month and a half now. I run 6 miles a day monday-friday and workout afterwards on M,W,F. I missed the 3rd and 4rth week because of a chest injury at work but I lost 8 pounds during that time off so I'm guessing all the running boosted my metabolism enough for that to happen even though I was not running or working out for two weeks. I guess that proves that you can benefit from a treadmill but my concern is...is it safe running 6 miles a day 5 days in a row? I'm never sore or anything and I keep increasing the speed every week but I am kind of worried about that. I plan on eventually only running that much on Tuesdays and Thursdays and running 2 mile sprints on the other days. I'm trying to get in the air force and into TACP. My goal is to get into an airborne unit and try out for the special forces side of tha job. Is my running routine a good one or is it not safe?

ATitansFan4eva,
You may have lost 8 pounds just because you weren't working out, not necessarily because the treadmill had you going before hand. Depending on your diet, if you're not working out you may loose weight because your loosing muscle mass. Everyone's metabolism is different though, so you can make all the correlations you see fit. Who knows.

Running 6 miles 5 days per week isn't harmful at all, if that's where your running level is at. It depends on your distance, pace or intesity goals, as to what you are going to accomplish with it. Even in high school I was running 4 miles 5 days per week after soccer practice and then a long run on the weekend. I didn't have a problem even as a kid, because that's what I was used to. I took some time off from running once in college and then tried to pick up 40 miles per week right off the bat and got pains in my shins I had never experienced before and now will probably have to fight with on occassion forever. Do what you've trained to and you're fine.

A good website is www.halhigdon.com . I run my own plans, but if you need one or want one to modify for yourself there are some good ones on this site for all types of goals. This guy is race oriented, but all skill levels are addressed. I'm sure there are plenty of other sites like it, if you look around. Figure out what you want to accomplish and find a plan and modify it if necessary.

I'm from Clarksville, TN also, so Hello.

Good question Nate. Why isn't this in the running forum?

The first answer is I'm the webmaster and I'll decide where stuff goes...if it hasn't been moved I either want it here, or just haven't moved it yet.

Second, it started out (I believe) as a stump the chump question...relating to the psychological effects (and after effects) of running on a treadmill.

Third, it has indeed morphed into a good discussion on running...so, I'll probably move it...perhaps this evening.

After reading about inclining the treadmill here I've been trying it for over a weeks now. It works better than I thought it would. I was going to start decreasing my times but have decided to run with the incline a little while longer before I do. I've already increased my speed though. I really would rather run outside but I have trouble sweating in 6 degree weather and It almost seems that I'm getting a better workout indoors where I can sweat. I am trying to drop some weight as well as better my running.

The feeling of getting a better workout indoors is, most likely, purely psychological. Sweating does not mean you are getting a better workout, or loosing weight more effectively. What sweating does do, is make your body better at cooling itself off. The body also learns to decrease the salinity of its sweat, thus preserving valuable electrolytes. This need not be a goal in itself unless one plans to operate in a hot environment very soon.

Well I have lost more weight more rapidly since I moved indoors out of the cold and onto the treadmill so It's obvious something with that move has helped. I was runnin myself to death outside and it seemed all I was doing was burning my lungs with cold air and not really losing weight. Yeah I was improving my stamina outside but I'm not really worried about stamina and distance and all that just yet because I need to loose some weight to get in the air force first. I already have decent stamina and distance thank god. It really is rediculous that I have to lose weight. I think the military should consider bone and muscle mass and not just weight and your height because I'm kinda stocky. My recruiter said I could get in if they gave me a body fat test. I'm way less than 20% body fat but I decided to just go ahead and lose the weight anyway. The more running I do the better anyway right?

As your recruiter said, the military does consider body fat as apposed to just height and weight, so I'm not sure what your complaint is. If you're way less than 20% body fat, then you have nothing to worry about...and can enter the AF now...so building your stamina outside is fine.

The more running the better, as long as it doesn't detract from any other areas that may need work (such as cals or swimming)...and you don't overtrain.

Moving this to the running forum now...a bit late, but hey...I'm the webmaster... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

A Titans Fan,

If you are doing the same amount of work for the same amount of time you will burn roughly the same amount of calories regardless of the temperature. You are mistaken about the quality of workout you get in the cold. The fact is you are sweating about the same and just don’t realize it. If you would prefer to run indoors fine, but it isn’t true that you aren’t getting the same workout. In fact, although you are burning roughly the same amount of calories you get a better workout in cold weather than in hot. You don't lose as much water and you don't overheat as quickly, so you can work out longer and possibly harder. Also, there's some evidence that cold weather actually causes your body to work harder—your heart has to contend with pumping blood faster not only to keep up with your exercise but also to keep you warm. Some of the most common running injuries are heat related, something you don’t have to worry about in cold weather. That being said you need to dress carefully and even run carefully in the winter but you are still getting every benefit of running.

Four Cold-Weather Myths from Runners World

Myth: You'll freeze your lungs.
Fact: There's no evidence that exercising in cold weather, even in extreme cold, will hurt your lungs. If the cold air hurts your throat, breathe through a bandanna or a polypropylene face mask.

Myth: You'll burn more calories when you run in the cold.
Fact: When you run continuously, you burn roughly 100 to 120 calories per mile. The air temperature doesn't significantly change this.

Myth: You don't have to drink as much when it's cold.
Fact: Most people sweat about as much during winter runs as they do during summer runs, but many runners don't recognize dehydration as easily during the winter. When in doubt, drink.

Myth: We're meant to hibernate during cold weather, not run.
Fact: Just take a trip to the Twin Cities in February and see how many people are running outside, enjoying the subzero temperatures. With the right clothing and a positive attitude, you can adapt to just about any type of weather.

There's a special joy in being the first to make footprints in the snow. The mental discipline that is often needed to get one foot out of the door when the snow is falling is just exactly what comes in handy during the latter stages of a marathon.

“Winter exercise puts more strain on your cardiovascular system.” David Spodick, M.D., professor of medicine at the University of Massachusetts Medical School.

I would like to go on the record as changing my opinion on the value of Treadmills. Why? Well, now that I have one in my basement and I have a new baby, I find that it's just plain convenient. Now, I am not saying the Treadmill is a replacement for real running, but it is better than not running at all. I also think that it doesn't slow you down as much as I once thought. I run between 8:00 and 8:30 per mile on my treadmill but the same effort level on the road sees me running 25-30 seconds faster. I've used various methods to measure my run distances and pace, even going so far as to run on the quarter mile track on an easy day just to verify my pace. Same result; I actually run faster for the effort on the road or trails then on the treadmill. I think this is just because I get bored on the treadmill and it feels like work, where as I love to run outside and the time just flies. Anyway here are some notes on effective treadmill running, as I see it:
1) The Treadmill is an excellent alternative to not running at all. I live in the country so between the dogs and pick up trucks, it just isn't smart to run the roads at night. When the day slips away on you and you realize it's the treadmill or nothing, take the treadmill.
2) Find something to watch or listen to while on the treadmill. I put a little TV in front of my treadmill and watch Documentaries or movies. Bruce Campbell and the Army of Darkness is fine, Major Payne is likely to make you fall off the treadmill or laugh so hard you can't breath.
3) Don't use the treadmill to the exclusion of real running. Even in nasty weather, try to get outside at least half the time.
4) Don't trust the treadmill for your pace. Remember, the treadmill is moving under you, you are not moving it. Your real running pace will not feel the same as your treadmill pace. Running is essentially hopping forward from one foot to the other. Running on a treadmill is essentially the same but the muscles that move you forward from foot to foot are not putting out nearly as much effort.
5)Treadmills suck for speed work. If you are going sub 6 minute pace, very few treadmills can go that fast. They work for intervals and fartleks but they are not nearly as fun and again, you can't run really fast on them.
6) Disregard anything I said that clashes with what works for you. I've been wrong before and will be again.

Coming to this thread a bit late, but... I would agree with Guard MC. For me it was/is just more convenient to train on a treadmill, and I think the mental toughness built up through monotonous minutes on the treadmill transfers over well.

I was running up to four miles at 730/mi. pace and to be honest, it felt like a very fast pace on the treadmill. When I ran a mile and a half eval, I did it in less than 9 minutes. I didn't think I was capable of anywhere close to that kind of pace. So it is very possible to train well on a treadmill, probably not the optimal solution but not the end of the world when it comes to your running times, also.

I should note that I was doing a lot of ballistic work with a KB at this time at well, an "omelet" workout combined with calisthenic sets. If my case is any example, it also bolster the idea that there is significant carry over from KB work to run eval times.

Definately agree with Guard MC that a treadmill is better than nothing. Also, MML is right that the treadmill is not the optimal solution but not the end of the world.
I am deployed right now and even when I'm not deployed between the old lady and my son I don't have time to split up my workout at the gym and then run outside (I know I could run to the gym but I take my boy there with me). So I have maintained a good running program on just strictly a treadmill. I'm a soon to be crosstrain to TACP whenever I make it out of Iraq and have passed the Army PT test training on that. You can get some good, quality work on the treadmill but it probably isn't optimal for your Special Tactics folks and wannabes who need to dial it in real tight. Just my 2 cents

I have really been trying to improve my running times as of late. So far this week, I have run 4 miles each on friday and today on the quarter mile indoor track at the gym. Both days I have done it in roughly 28 minutes; 7 minute miles.

Before I did this, I ran on a treadmill for 2 weeks with a 2% incline, and at 7 minute miles. I attribute the treadmill steadiness for my ability to get 7 minute miles for an extended period of time on the real track.

Is it true that the only way to keep getting that down under 7 min/miles is to run sprints. I am just not a sprinter at all. I can do it, but very short periods of time. Is speed that is faster than 7 minute miles really needed for what I am going to be doing in SERE?