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#15198 - Mon Nov 25 2002 19:10 PM Beret Question
sjl777 Offline
New Member

Registered: Mon Nov 25 2002
Posts: 1
Loc: CA
Are there other AF personnel who are not PJs and assigned to Army units that wear maroon berets? A while back while visiting MacDill AFB I thought I saw an AF NCO wearing a maroon beret. The beret definitely had an Army style flash and not the PJ crest. I do not recall seeing any jump wings but I did not exactly run up to the guy and inspect his uniform. If I remember the uniform AFI correctly, the only maroon berets authorized are only for PJs. Could this guy have been assigned to USCENTCOM or USSOCOM?

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#15199 - Mon Nov 25 2002 20:24 PM Re: Beret Question
Whitey Offline
Member

Registered: Wed Sep 04 2002
Posts: 117
Loc: New Orleans
Doesn't 82d Airborne wear them?

-Whitey

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#15200 - Mon Nov 25 2002 21:18 PM Re: Beret Question
PRC117F Offline
Member

Registered: Wed Mar 21 2001
Posts: 158
Loc: 123rd STS
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Whitey:
<strong>Doesn't 82d Airborne wear them?

-Whitey</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The question was whether other USAF troops (except PJ's) wear the maroon beret. The answer is no. There are currently only five air force specialties that are permitted to wear a beret. The color and corresponding job are:

Red=Combat Control
Maroon=Pararescue
Black=Tactical Air Control Party
Gray=Combat Weather
Blue=Security Police

Hope this helps....
_________________________
CCT: The science of applied physics with the art of choreography

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#15201 - Mon Nov 25 2002 22:01 PM Re: Beret Question
Whitey Offline
Member

Registered: Wed Sep 04 2002
Posts: 117
Loc: New Orleans
I was just thinking maybe he made a mistake by seeing a member of the 82d...just a thought.

-Whitey

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#15202 - Tue Nov 26 2002 08:54 AM Re: Beret Question
HaShor Offline
New Member

Registered: Wed Oct 03 2001
Posts: 73
Loc: Kirtland AFB, NM
Actually, those AF members who are on jump status and assigned to either an Airborne Army unit, or one of the T-SOCs (JSOC, SOCPAC, etc) are authorized to wear the Army maroon Airborne beret. Such is the case with my unit (SOCJFCOM).

BULL

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#15203 - Wed Nov 27 2002 15:39 PM Re: Beret Question
PRC117F Offline
Member

Registered: Wed Mar 21 2001
Posts: 158
Loc: 123rd STS
Cool, I did not know that.
_________________________
CCT: The science of applied physics with the art of choreography

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#15204 - Wed Nov 27 2002 18:23 PM Re: Beret Question
KJ Offline
Operator

Registered: Wed Mar 21 2001
Posts: 256
Loc: Angeles City, Philippines
You did not know it, because it is not quite the full story. I suspect HaShor is informing you of information that is not in the basic AFI. I am guessing, he is referring to an MAJCOM Sup, in this case AFSOC. So, if you are in AFSOC, those rules would apply. I also doubt if the wording was 'on jump status', as this is a personnel issue (also the approving authority for MAJCOM Sups to the uniform AFI 36-2903), I would bet it would be authorization for "J" coded positions within the MAJCOM. Just a guess, but it really doesn't matter. Some history: An AFSOC Sup is what allowed the original wear of the HALO badge. Not that this was bad, it just caused some problems when the other MAJCOMs had not changed their own regulations to conform with the same, and airmen felt they could wear what their AFSOC bro's were lucky enough to have been wearing. AFSOC always stayed ahead of the trend curve, and were good at keeping up on the regulations. I don't know, but I am guessing this has been changed to allow wear of the HALO badge in all the MAJCOMs today. (If not, get off your asses you staff weenies and get it fixed!).
_________________________
Living the Dream,
KJ

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#15205 - Wed Nov 27 2002 22:57 PM Re: Beret Question
HaShor Offline
New Member

Registered: Wed Oct 03 2001
Posts: 73
Loc: Kirtland AFB, NM
KJ,

Essentially, you're right...it's semantics mostly, thought it's not the MAJCOM (i.e, AFSOC), per se, but SOCOM-derived "rule" (which, in and of itself, is a pretty nebulous word as it applies to this and a great many other deviations not comonly known). You're spot-on about the J-code position thing (almost exclusively found in either the SOCs or Army Airborne attached, with a few cats and dogs thrown in here and there). It, like a great many things in the joint world, is Army-derived (hence the non-PJ or STS flash).

Interestingly, when I was an OTS instructor, it wasn't the HALO thing that drove some of our "legs" crazy -- it was the Scuba bubble. It's generally accepted that HALO wings are "universally" OK, as they're "aviation" wings (I even had a non-STS aerospace physiology kid who had HALO wings). But when I had Paul Durst come through (former CCT, schoolhouse Cadre turned pilot), he was stopped nearly thrice-weekly about his bubble and his "authorization" to wear it, as was all the former recon Marine types who passed my door. I told him to leave it on and direct (politely) all inquiries to me, but it was an "issue" with the TIs there.

BULL

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#15206 - Thu Nov 28 2002 04:03 AM Re: Beret Question
TE Offline
Operator

Registered: Thu Oct 17 2002
Posts: 4132
Loc: Various
Actually, he was not authorized to wear the SCUBA badge... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> An individual must be qualified (which he was) AND required to perform diving duty (which he was not as a pilot) in order to be authorized to wear it...

The parachutist badge is permanently awarded (unless revoked for various reasons such as refusal to jump, etc.) upon graduation from an approved course, so individuals are authorized to wear it permanently even it they are not required to perform frequent and regular jumps (hence all the 5 jump chumps out there with the basic parachutist badge)...that is the key difference between it, and the SCUBA badge.

KJ - Its been fixed, the HALO badge is authorized for wear and permanently awarded IAW the AFI.

So ends my staff weenie diatribe...seems kinda strange that the SCUBA badge (which is much harder to get than the parachutist badge) ISN'T permanently awarded.
_________________________
TE
Pararescueman (Ret)/Webmaster/Administrator/RKC
The real test comes when all strength has fled, and men must produce victory on will alone...

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#15207 - Thu Nov 28 2002 07:59 AM Re: Beret Question
KJ Offline
Operator

Registered: Wed Mar 21 2001
Posts: 256
Loc: Angeles City, Philippines
That's because the scuba bubble is not aviation related. I don't have to tell you TE (knowing that you have done your time telling the 'cows' how things are done in the PJ and Joint non-fighter pilot world).
_________________________
Living the Dream,
KJ

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#15208 - Fri Nov 29 2002 00:12 AM Re: Beret Question
HaShor Offline
New Member

Registered: Wed Oct 03 2001
Posts: 73
Loc: Kirtland AFB, NM
TE,

No, unfortunately, it isn't strange...it's just as KJ iterated; it's a pilot's world, after all (well, of course I'm not telling you somthing you don't know). Same goes for Air Assault, Pathfinder, Ranger tabs, etc. Even the Rigger badge isn't a permanantly awarded thing although we have several Aerial Delivery flights throughout the AF. At the time of the "Great Bubble Crisis" (which it actually came to be known), Durst was still an OT, and was still being paid as an active diver (if his skinny butt hadn't made it through OTS, he'd have gone back to his old haunts), so still authorized. Now, I hope he's wearing it just to piss off pilot weenies. I know from talking with him recently he's taken a fair amount of grief just for wearing his HALO wings ("what, you guys are special or something?"). C'est la vie, I guess. Those are the kind of guys you love to have challenge you to "combat Crud" (and I used to love to tell them that while nomex might keep you from getting burned, it won't prevent an *** -whoopin').

BULL

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#15209 - Fri Nov 29 2002 00:46 AM Re: Beret Question
TE Offline
Operator

Registered: Thu Oct 17 2002
Posts: 4132
Loc: Various
I thought that may have been the case (not yet a pilot/commissioned) so you are right...and yes, I hope every prior operator out there at least challenges the system a bit and wears it...of course...when we finally get a CRO or STO as CSAF...THEN things will change! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
_________________________
TE
Pararescueman (Ret)/Webmaster/Administrator/RKC
The real test comes when all strength has fled, and men must produce victory on will alone...

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#15210 - Fri Nov 29 2002 15:55 PM Re: Beret Question
DT Offline
New Member

Registered: Fri Nov 29 2002
Posts: 3
Loc: Ramstein AB, Germany
On my flight suit nametag, I wear my pilot wings (the only badge I have without a wreath and star, so it kinds stands out in a bad way on my dress blues) over my HALO wings. Yes, I got some crap from a certain Maj here at RAB, Germany, in my own unit...he was a tanker pilot who, upon meeting me for the first time, saw my HALO wings and said, "What, HALO guys gotta have their own special f'ing wings?" He then went on to tell me about an MC-130 crew during an exercise and how they maintained radio silence as per their role in the exercise and how they "thought they were hot-sh*t" because they were special ops. With the exception of wearing my HALO wings, I maintain a low profile...I don't brag about spending 11 years of my life with the best quality people in the military, nor do I bitch about the lack of that quality in the majority of the people I now work with. But, this particular Maj had on the 5-jump chump wings form the academy, and I told him I had those same wings but I called them static line. That set him off. We haven't had 2 words in the month and a half since. I do, however, keep my bubble on my dress uniform...just the other day I was wearing it for a change of command, and had a Chief, who'd been a load master at McChord when I was stationed there, comment on how great it was I still had the pride for my old career field...he was good friends with Jim Charvat. Anyway, God bless all you STS-ers still doing the job. I encourage all of you who knew Chris Matero to write letters to his kids, Dante and Brianna, telling them about their father and the kind of person he was at work. His wife would love those letters...she says she's only received two so far. I know I would want it for my daughter if it were me. Thanks!
_________________________
How true it is that in all military operations, timing is everything -- Napoleon

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#15211 - Fri Nov 29 2002 16:16 PM Re: Beret Question
Marty Givens Offline
Operator

Registered: Fri Mar 16 2001
Posts: 393
Loc: Eugene, OR USA
DT-Were you stationed at the PJ schoolhouse in your former life?
_________________________
Marty Givens
Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate

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#15212 - Fri Nov 29 2002 20:40 PM Re: Beret Question
BR Offline
New Member

Registered: Fri Nov 29 2002
Posts: 1
Loc: Pope AFB, NC
DT...I guess you never know who you might see on here. Glad to hear you are standing tall against all the STS haters out there. Send me your new info, mine is the same. Talk to you soon.....Litespeeds Rule!
_________________________
Godspeed

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#15213 - Fri Nov 29 2002 22:35 PM Re: Beret Question
HaShor Offline
New Member

Registered: Wed Oct 03 2001
Posts: 73
Loc: Kirtland AFB, NM
DT...are you sure you didn't mean for your handle to be "Major Woobie"?

BULL

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#15214 - Sat Nov 30 2002 11:13 AM Re: Beret Question
KJ Offline
Operator

Registered: Wed Mar 21 2001
Posts: 256
Loc: Angeles City, Philippines
People gave me **** about my wings, or my beret, or my unit, I ATE IT UP!! Why? Because it meant I was a part of something. Who gets the most hacking? The team that is in the winning circle. I wanted my whole team to go to lunch together, and sit at the same table. Why? To walk in the chowhall and take guff from jealous wannabees, that's why. It meant you were somebody, they were jealous for a reason. Losers catch no flak. Me? Give me a flak jacket, and I will LOVE TO WEAR IT!! The Major has a problem, act with tact, you are in the Air Force, you are wearing an aviation badge that you are REQUIRED to wear. He is required to wear the static line parachutists badge also. Those are the rules. If he has a problem, tell him to fill out an 847 like everybody else. In the meantime, whether he likes it, you like, I like it, or not, the wings will be worn IAW the AFI. (And secretly, I chalk one up for the good guys). Remember, handle this with tact and RESPECT. He is still a Major, and you respect the rank, if not the man.
_________________________
Living the Dream,
KJ

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#15215 - Mon Dec 02 2002 11:16 AM Re: Beret Question
DT Offline
New Member

Registered: Fri Nov 29 2002
Posts: 3
Loc: Ramstein AB, Germany
Marty, No, I was never at the PJ schoolhouse...I was, however, an instructor at CCS from '97 until 2000. BR, gimmee a break...Gary walks all over Litespeed!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> ) By the way, how'd your Ironman go? Bull...what can I say that I haven't already? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> ) Nice job on that marathon! -- Yes, I respect the rank, but the man, I learnt from the best (Bull) how to tactfully deal with people like that. Thanks for the replies.
_________________________
How true it is that in all military operations, timing is everything -- Napoleon

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#15216 - Mon Dec 02 2002 22:46 PM Re: Beret Question
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sounds like your Christmas card list got shorter again this year Paul.

I'm attending SOS right now and after an STS briefing we had the other day, I was talking with a fighter dude in my flight and he said "screw it man, the PJs and controllers are the real heroes out there. A lot of pilots might talk ****, but it's because they know those guys gave their *** and earned their jobs." I have some good friends that fly, but it was nice to finally hear one more who talked well about someone other than himself. I know a rare few of them.

It's also cool to see the reactions of a lot of the trainees here at OTS now that more prior PJ and CCT are coming through for CRO and STO. They all ask "what are all the badges those guys are wearing?" Now they leave here more educated about who you are than most of the Air Force.

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#15217 - Wed Dec 04 2002 21:01 PM Re: Beret Question
Monsoon Offline
New Member

Registered: Fri Aug 02 2002
Posts: 49
Loc: Harrisburg, PA
I never really had a problem with guys wearing badges, as long as they earned them. There was a few guys that had Air Assault wings when I was with the 3CCGP, and they wore them, even tho it wasn't an Air Assault unit (We conned some slots from the Fort Sill school. We lost them when we sent too many people down there that failed).

In my unit now is a guy that was in an ANGLICO unit and has static line and USMC wings, and he doesn't want to draw attention to himself. I said, "You earned them, you wear them. If someone gives you grief, they're jealous."

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#15218 - Fri Dec 06 2002 00:55 AM Re: Beret Question
SOCPAC SOJ21 Offline
New Member

Registered: Fri Dec 06 2002
Posts: 20
Loc: Hawaii
Hey guys! This is GS, formerly of the intel shop at 21 STS and before that 720th. I am now at SOCPAC. Yes, every TSOC I work with has AF jumpers wearing maroon berets. Here is the rule tho. You have to be in a J billet AND actually jumping. Most of the AF slots are J coded but only two of us besides the 2 CCT here are jumping.

Durst, congrats man! I am proud of ya!

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#15219 - Tue Dec 10 2002 00:02 AM Re: Beret Question
SI Offline
Operator

Registered: Mon Sep 03 2001
Posts: 103
Loc: Osan AB
As a former controller, here is my view on wearing the badges. I do not wear my Halo or Scuba badges on my uniform now. I feel wearing those badges would be cutting short those who put eight years worth of effort into helping me get all my advanced quals. I feel the Halo or Scuba badges are earned and should be worn when performing those duties. If I were to put Halo wings or a Scuba bubble on, I would be portraying myself as still being an operator.

Even though I left CCT to go to OTS and got commissioned in a job other than CRO or STO, I feel I let a lot of people down by leaving when I was starting to really contribute to the mission in a bigger way.

All that being said, I still do wear my airborne wings. When I see an academy guy wearing airborne wings and only having five short freefalls, I feel it would be wrong for me not to wear them after doing so much more than he (or She) has for the same badge.

I did research the regs and found nothing different saying that a non-operator is authorized the HALO or SCUBA badge for life after being awarded the badges. If it the regs did say I could, I still could not in good conscience wear those badges unless I was still an operator.

You guys are doing great things out there. HOOYAH!!!
_________________________
Ski

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#15220 - Mon Dec 09 2002 14:39 PM Re: Beret Question
coney Offline
Member

Registered: Thu May 03 2001
Posts: 181
SI-
Just curious, why did you get out of the careefield? Have you thought about getting back in as a CRO or STO? Just wondering why and if you regret it or if you're happy where you are.

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#15221 - Tue Dec 10 2002 09:59 AM Re: Beret Question
SI Offline
Operator

Registered: Mon Sep 03 2001
Posts: 103
Loc: Osan AB
Why did I leave, well I guess I did not think too much about that before I left. The job I got I will be happy doing if I can’t get back as a CRO or STO. I am in one of the hard to get released from career fields. After OTS I did get a chance to attend STO Phase II selection. Getting this chance to attend Phased II took an act of god from my functional manager. The board decided it was too soon for me to return to ST. Most prior controllers take a couple of times at Phase II before they get selected. The time a way has done me good. If I had returned as a team leader after being away from ST after only three months, I would have went from working with the guys to being the boss. The change would have been too drastic.

I feel I have one more chance to attend selection and I plan on using it to attend a CRO or STO selection. I’m just deciding what is the best time for me to attend.

I wonder why the career fields don’t see more prior PJs and Controllers returning. They are needed.

I wish that anyone who becomes a PJ or Controller would find the time as rewarding for him as it was for me. The things they are able to accomplish are awesome.
_________________________
Ski

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#15222 - Tue Dec 10 2002 10:22 AM Re: Beret Question
HaShor Offline
New Member

Registered: Wed Oct 03 2001
Posts: 73
Loc: Kirtland AFB, NM
SI,

What career field are you in now?

BULL

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#15223 - Tue Dec 10 2002 15:49 PM Re: Beret Question
Anonymous
Unregistered


This discussion made me curious, I was of the impression that if you went to OTS before your enlistment was up and you were a PJ or Controller, that the only jobs you could take were STO or CRO? The only reason I ask this is because my recruiter said something of the sort, in a breif conversation the other day. I don't think he looked into it any farther either.

If this isn't true some one enlighten me.

Mike

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#15224 - Tue Dec 10 2002 16:24 PM Re: Beret Question
SI Offline
Operator

Registered: Mon Sep 03 2001
Posts: 103
Loc: Osan AB
If you are a PJ or controller, you can get commissioned onto career fields other than CRO and STO. Most get other career fields. Someone attending OTS is not as common as someone going to ROTC.

When you apply you OTS, you choose three broad categories. You can not choose a specific career field. You can choose to be a pilot, but you can not choose to be a MC-130P pilot. With CRO and STO you choose airfield management. CRO and STO and Airfield management all fall under the same functional manager.

If you get chosen to OTS as airfield management (13M), the release you need for CRO and STO can be easier to get.

If you are a PJ or Controller you can attend CRO or STO officer selection as an enlisted member if you are chosen for OTS. This means you're slot as a CRO or STO can be secured before you leave for OTS if you 1) work the system so you can attend Phase II and 2) at Phase II you perform to level that you are selected as a CRO or STO.

In my case I got picked up as an Air Battle Manager (13B AWACs) and I did not apply for STO until OTS. I did have the Airfield Ops career field chosen, but I also had Air Weapons Controller Checked. I got commissioned as an Air weapons controller. It was 8 months and I was no longer a combat controller when I chose to attend STO.

Keep in mind that being a prior controller or PJ does not guarantee you selection as a CRO or STO if you attend Phase II. It is not uncommon for a prior service controller to attend STO selection and not get picked up on the first Phase II board. At my selection, it was my first time I attended and I was not chosen. There was another controller there who did get picked up for STO, and it was his second time through Phase II. I never attended CRO selection, but just like STO not all prior PJs and Controllers get chosen.

Like I said in my last post, it would have been too much of a transition for me for one day being one of the guys training for the mission and partying with them to being a team leader.
_________________________
Ski

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#15225 - Tue Dec 10 2002 16:54 PM Re: Beret Question
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks for the heads up. Everything that you told me is what I thought before my conversation with my recruiter-- I just have to very careful not to be misled by what people who aren't familiar are saying. This leads me to one more question-- just because you are active enlisted personel and have a college degree doesn't nessicarily guarantee the fact that you can go to OTS either, does it? I have a hunch it isn't as easy as I've been told.

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#15226 - Tue Dec 10 2002 22:15 PM Re: Beret Question
TE Offline
Operator

Registered: Thu Oct 17 2002
Posts: 4132
Loc: Various
Ski...youski neverski partyski doski youski?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Hope that conjurs up some fond memories of our team days together!
_________________________
TE
Pararescueman (Ret)/Webmaster/Administrator/RKC
The real test comes when all strength has fled, and men must produce victory on will alone...

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#15227 - Wed Dec 11 2002 14:53 PM Re: Beret Question
SI Offline
Operator

Registered: Mon Sep 03 2001
Posts: 103
Loc: Osan AB
Hick. Recruiters have access to good information to how many apply and how many get selected. They have access to the percentage of prior enlisted compared to those who are applying from the civilian world. The message may be difficult to find, but there are messages that tell an applicants name and if he got selected or non-selected. Any Base education office also has this info. If you doubt the recruiters numbers, ask to see the message. Selection to OTS goes anywhere from 5% to 75% of those who apply. With prior enlisted having a marginal advantage (Perhaps two or three % points).

TE. Yes many fond memories. You’re not the only one temporarily away from the teams. I hope you’re next assignment gets you back to the teams.
_________________________
Ski

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#15228 - Wed Jan 22 2003 22:40 PM Re: Beret Question
SOCPAC SOJ21 Offline
New Member

Registered: Fri Dec 06 2002
Posts: 20
Loc: Hawaii
I am at SOCPAC and the two of us who are on jump status and are who are not CCT wear Maroon Berets.

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#15229 - Thu Jan 23 2003 10:38 AM Re: Beret Question
SN Offline

Operator

Registered: Fri May 11 2001
Posts: 333
Loc: Ft Livingroom
SOCPAC

How are you authorized a Beret? The AFI only lists CCT, PJ, Cops, TACP, Honor Guard, and weather as the authorized wearer's of berets.

Being in a Joint assignment shouldn't be grounds for ignoring the uniforn AFI.
_________________________
SSM-NDTT!

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#15230 - Thu Jan 23 2003 20:19 PM Re: Beret Question
Yukon Offline
Operator

Registered: Wed Mar 14 2001
Posts: 2021
Loc: Anchorage AK, USA
AFI 36-2903 provides authority for members of four AFSCs to wear berets and bloused boots with all uniforms at all times except semi-formal, mess dress uniforms. As long as these people are in possession of award of the AFSC and are qualified to perform the duties of the AFSC they are authorized to wear beret and bloused boots every time and anyplace they wear a uniform. Security Police are some what restricted on beret wear as beret can only be worn by SPs assigned to group level or below. The MAJCOM regulations provide the actual guidance to SPs for wear of the beret. This is because SP berets have MAJCOM crest and PJ, CCT, weather, and TACP have a specialty crest. Those AF members who are on jump status and assigned to either an Airborne Army unit, or one of the T-SOCs (JSOC, SOCPAC, etc) “may” be authorized by a local commander to wear the Army maroon Airborne beret, but wear is restrictive to certain situations and locations of the organization and usually just with the BDU. Basically they are allowed to wear the beret so they don’t look different from everybody else. When they no longer have a need to fit in with members of a unit, they loose the authority to wear the beret. Or more politically correct: Members who are on jump status and assigned to either an airborne army unit or T-SOC wear the beret because of the unit they are assigned to and not in recognition of any unique capabilities and qualifications of their AFSC or manning position they are filling (job).

ps. The four AFSCs are: Pararescue, CCT, Air-Weather Service Parachutists, and TACP. Pararescue was the first AFSC (28 Feb 1966) given SAF authority of having a distinctive uniform of beret and bloused boots.

v/r

John

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#15231 - Mon Jan 27 2003 03:33 AM Re: Beret Question
SOCPAC SOJ21 Offline
New Member

Registered: Fri Dec 06 2002
Posts: 20
Loc: Hawaii
Yukon got it half right...only jump qualified AF personnel filling J-coded billets may wear berets. It does recognize the individual's unique skill as well as the job he is doing. Not every position is J-coded and there are alot of J-coded positions filled by non-airborne qualified personnel (ie all of our rated officers except the CG). This is the same at every TSOC, JSOC and USSOCOM. And for the record...this is NOT in AFI 36-2903. All of the units mentioned above have uniform directives that direct AF members on how to wear their uniform. Our CG is AF as is COMSOCOM.

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#15232 - Mon Jan 27 2003 10:40 AM Re: Beret Question
Yukon Offline
Operator

Registered: Wed Mar 14 2001
Posts: 2021
Loc: Anchorage AK, USA
SOCPAC- I’ll clarify my position a bit regarding special qualifications I made an incorrect generalization. I should have said any special direct operational requirement relevant to the position regarding the possibility and probability of people in these jobs doing anything more than training jumps for pay is low. The likelihood for most to jump into a hot DZ such as an airfield seizure or in an area controlled by the enemy is low. The actual personal combat skills needed to be effective in combat are not practiced much other than perhaps the annual weapons qualifications and chemical warfare training. In fact, removing the J-coding from the manning position for these jobs often would not compromise the unit’s combat readiness or impact ability of the unit doing its daily operations. Physical fitness standards are nothing more than either minimal AF or minimal army standards. Authorizing directive for their Beret wear is of lower authority than an AFI and only provides authority for beret wear as an organizational requirement rather than establishing wear as a distinctive uniform item “recognizing the distinctive achievements and unique capabilities of the AFSC.” So the only thing the beret recognizes is these people are getting jump pay for doing training jumps and are attached to a unit that is joint staff or mostly army. The jump wings are what is awarded for any special qualification these people have. Move that person to a mainstream AF assignment within their AFSC and the beret and jump pay goes bye bye.

Your own statement: "Not every position is J-coded and there are alot of J-coded positions filled by non-airborne qualified personnel," reflects the truth of the essence of the beret being an organizational unique clothing item for these positions if a person is actually on jump status and making the minimum jumps needed to collect jump pay entitlements.

v/r

John

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#15233 - Sat Feb 08 2003 00:33 AM Re: Beret Question
SOCPAC SOJ21 Offline
New Member

Registered: Fri Dec 06 2002
Posts: 20
Loc: Hawaii
John,
You got it.
-Eric

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#62610 - Thu Nov 01 2012 13:10 PM Re: Beret Question [Re: sjl777]
Yukon Offline
Operator

Registered: Wed Mar 14 2001
Posts: 2021
Loc: Anchorage AK, USA
Update: All proposals to Department of Air Force (HQ/AF) and USSOCOM to approve and authorize JCU USAF members wear of maroon beret or any other beret have been disapproved.

There never was any joint duty position authority or approval for Air Force members in an army airborne or joint parachutist position to wear a beret uniform.

Assertions of “only jump qualified AF personnel filling J-coded billets may wear berets. It does recognize the individual's unique skill as well as the job he is doing” is shoveling BS. Although being a member of the Army serving in an airborne unit brings with wear of the Maroon Beret, an Air Force member filling a parachutist coded duty position isn't covered by Army uniform policies pertinent to approval and authorization to wear a beret uniform.

Air Force Dress and Appearance policy and never had a only jump qualified AF personnel filling J-coded billets may wear berets policy.

Quote:
Subject: RE: Form submission from Contact page - JCUOnline.org

Mr Cassidy,

We appreciate your interest in the Joint Communications Unit. Currently we are not authorized to wear
the Maroon Beret or blouse our dress uniform pants. When the AFI was recently rewritten it was
changed to exclude JCU.

There is a proposal on the table at USSOCOM to amend the AFI so JCU USAF members will be able to
once again wear the beret. Currently only the Army is authorized to wear the maroon beret in JCU.
Our physical fitness standards are above all the other service requirements. In addition to the JCU PT
test, members are still required to perform their service specific tests.

We are an airborne unit, under the current unit commander he has opted to make jump status optional
to aide in the recruiting of our USAF AFSCs. This requirement changes with commanders...Ken Willett

KENNETH R. WILLETT, CIV
Assessment & Selection
Joint Communications Unit, Fort Bragg NC
Mr. Willett was mistaken in claiming AFI recently was rewritten to exclude JCU. The AFRs and AFIs were researched going back to the 1960s and no such authority and approval was found in any Air Force Dress and Appearance publication or MAJCOM supplement to such policies and guidance.

The Air Force Uniform Board has no record of ever approving JCU beret uniform wear authorization for Air Force members assigned to the units mentioned.

Furthermore the jump positions at these units exist primarily to entice members of the Air Force to volunteer for these joint duty positions as there is liitle, if any operational utilization of these jump positions Air Force members are put into to execute a mission. A comm guy recently tried to BS wear of his Marron Beret as a student going through a SNCO Academy course. Not only did he get his ***** handed to him by the PJ who hapened to be in the same class, the JCU Air Force NCO got himself some official punitive administrative paper work for wearing an unauthorized and not approved beret uniform.


Quote:
Joint Publication 1-0 Joint Personnel Support:

6. Other Operational Considerations

b. Uniform Policies. Policies governing uniform wear for deployed military and civilian personnel is a Service responsibility;however, the GCC may establish basic uniform standards in the AOR. These standards might address issues that impact or are directly related to the mission of the joint force. The CCDR, subordinate JFC, or component commander may require that CAAF be issued and be prepared to wear organizational clothing and individual equipment, to include chemical, biological, and radiological element and high-yield explosive defensive equipment, necessary to ensure CAAF security and safety.
USSOCOM isn't a Service and has no authority to approve or authorize beret uniform for Air Force members as some are trying to falsely pretend exist or did exist, or will exist. The beret uniform has no mission impact or personal protection equipment relationship to the mission. The Jump-code is just an incentive to entice Air Force members of Intel, Communications and whatever career fields to volunteer to support the Army and not there as actual mission need airborne capability.


Originally Posted By: HaShor
Actually, those AF members who are on jump status and assigned to either an Airborne Army unit, or one of the T-SOCs (JSOC, SOCPAC, etc) are authorized to wear the Army maroon Airborne beret. Such is the case with my unit (SOCJFCOM).

BULL
This is a false statement. NO policy ever existed in writing with or without a commanders signature at SOCJFCOM, JSOC, SOCPAC or any Army airborne unit authorizing Air Force members to waer Army organizationmal beret uniform.

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#62660 - Fri Nov 09 2012 00:44 AM Re: Beret Question [Re: sjl777]
BayouZia Offline
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Registered: Mon Jun 11 2012
Posts: 5
Loc: NM, USA
9 years later... good research though

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#62662 - Fri Nov 09 2012 08:46 AM Re: Beret Question [Re: sjl777]
Yukon Offline
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Registered: Wed Mar 14 2001
Posts: 2021
Loc: Anchorage AK, USA
Actually the two beret threads probably should be merged together considering all the active duty and Reserve Air Force guys and gals wearing unauthorized beret uniforms.

Example: AIRMAN RANGER RETIRES AFTER 41YEARS

Notice his beret hero wannabee history starts with "Hays originally wanted to be a pararescueman and go to Vietnam and save lives but didn't have 20/20 vision, so he ended up with a communications job after looking into what his oldest brother did in the Navy." And like most he joined to avoid being drafted into the Army participating in ground combat.

Another example:

Commander, 1st Joint Communications Squadron His unit although subordinate to TRANSCOM submitted justification through USSOCOM that was recently disapproved. The request included attempt to justify Air Force members wear maroon beret in all joint duty assignment whether it was a jump position or not if the Air Force Member completed the course and was awarded the basic parachutist badge.

Distinctive Beret Uniform History of US Armed Forces The history focus on when the service (HQ Army/HQ AF) approved and authorized wear with service uniform which differs considerably in stature and heraldry from local commander approving head gear as an organizational duty or organizational ceremonial uniform.

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#62665 - Fri Nov 09 2012 17:22 PM Re: Beret Question [Re: sjl777]
Guard MC Offline
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Registered: Sat Aug 09 2003
Posts: 1864
Loc: Louisville, Ky STS
Yukon,
Thanks for posting the Airman Ranger Retires After 41 Years article. 41 years in the Air Force, makes Colonel, and still can't wear the right headgear? More proof that posers come in all shapes, sizes and ages!
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#62666 - Fri Nov 09 2012 17:34 PM Re: Beret Question [Re: sjl777]
Guard MC Offline
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Registered: Sat Aug 09 2003
Posts: 1864
Loc: Louisville, Ky STS
Yukon,
Thanks for posting the Airman Ranger Retires After 41 Years article. 41 years in the Air Force, makes Colonel, and still can't wear the right headgear? More proof that posers come in all shapes, sizes and ages!

JCU Commander in a beret? Disappointing. I have had some friends in JCU and they were highly skilled at their jobs but nothing they did would warrant special recognition of the group worthy of a special beret. Given the often clandestine nature of their job, you would think they would avoid distinctive headgear and yet, their Commander sports an unearned, unauthorized (by HQUSAF) and highly attention grabbing beret in public photos.
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#62668 - Fri Nov 09 2012 19:06 PM Re: Beret Question [Re: sjl777]
Yukon Offline
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Registered: Wed Mar 14 2001
Posts: 2021
Loc: Anchorage AK, USA
There are two units being discussed in the links I provided. Joint Communications Unit (JCU) is at Ft Bragg and the bulk of the Joint Communications Support Element Squadrons are at MacDill AFB. Although both are a communications support package for supporting primarily headquarters and operations centers JCU and JCSE are not created as equal capabilities. There are different levels of organizational tactical command and control echelon (Brigade, Battalion, Regiment, company) communications requirements on the battlefield. Even TACP and CCT fills a communications package support role within the far forward battlefield tactical echelons.

JCSE formed in 1961 with 415 Air Force and Army members as a Communications Support Element, in 1972 the Navy and Marines joined the element and it was renamed JCSE. JCSE is available for worldwide deployment in support of any Combatant Command. Its mission statement is--On order, JCSE immediately deploys to provide enroute, early entry, scalable C4 support to the Regional Combatant Commands, Special Operations Command, and other agencies as directed; on order, provides additional C4 services within 72 hours to support larger CJTF/CJSOTF Headquarters across the full spectrum of operations.

JCU was activated in 1980 at Ft. Bragg, NC, and assigned to the Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC). The JCU is tasked with ensuring standardization of communications procedures and equipment used by JSOC, and its subordinate units. It is also tasked with providing a link between deployed JSOC units, other special operations and military units, other government agencies, and the National Command Authority (NCA). JCU is required to maintain doctrinal expertise in the use all the services communications equipment. JCU is also proficient in the use US governmental agency's and allied military communications systems. It’s recruiting page, http://www.jcuonline.org/what_is_jcu.htm, discloses it is predominately made up of enlisted personnel. In June of 1981 JCU assumed the responsibility of providing communications support for US special operations conducting counter terrorist (CT) operations, from the JCSE. Prior to this specially selected, airborne trained Army and Air Force personnel assigned to JCSE Quick Reaction Element teams supported CT exercises, and missions. Since its initial activation JCU personnel have supported every JSOC deployment. BTW, Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC) was established in 1980 too.

The mission role and mission utilization is communications support to the decision making chain of command commanders. This put them at robust FOBs with other combat support assets more so than outside of the wire participating in small unit tactical missions.

The Navy and Marine members of these units have no history of wearing the Army's airborne beret, its just the Air Force members getting caught in the beret wear uniform violations.

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#62672 - Sat Nov 10 2012 05:01 AM Re: Beret Question [Re: sjl777]
Guard MC Offline
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Registered: Sat Aug 09 2003
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No surprise on the last statement. The Marines are proud to be Marines and the Navy guys have the discipline not to try to wear unauthorized gear (or they are afraid of their Chief Petty Officers beating their *****es). The Army already went beret crazy so nobody would feel left out; a beret for everyone. And their Maroon beret is worn by anyone who can fall out of an airplane 4 out 5 times without breaking a let. (yes, if you make the 5th jump and break a leg, you can still graduate--seen it done.

Given that the USAF has a veritable rainbow of beret colors already, that everybody in the Army gets a beret and that the USAF does not do a instil pride in simply being an Airman, it is hardly surprising that they are the majority of violators.

Still pisses me off, though.
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#62675 - Sat Nov 10 2012 11:36 AM Re: Beret Question [Re: sjl777]
Yukon Offline
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Registered: Wed Mar 14 2001
Posts: 2021
Loc: Anchorage AK, USA
Originally Posted By: Guard MC

And their Maroon beret is worn by anyone who can fall out of an airplane 4 out 5 times without breaking a leg.
Not exactly, the Army member having award of a parachutist badge must still be assigned to an airborne unit. The two joint communication units are not units having a primary airborne mission.

The JCU hangs onto Special Operations coattails consequently the modified (has yellow lightning bolt) Joint Special Operations Command Beret Flash.

The 1st Joint Communications Squadron lacks a primary airborne mission, consequently lack of Airborne on the unit insignia (patch). This is easily discernible by comparing the 1st Joint Communication Squadron's unit insignia to the 4th Joint Communications Squadron. The 4th Joint Communications Squadron is the only Airborne Signal Battalion in the Army Reserve and its unit insignia discloses being Airborne as part of its primary mission. The beret flash worn by 1st Joint Communications Squadron/CC is not The Institute of Heraldry, U.S. Army listed as an approved and authorized beret flash.

Quote:
AR 670-1
Airborne, Ranger, and Special Forces soldiers wear their distinctive flashes on their berets. All other soldiers wear the Army flash on the black beret, unless authorization for another flash was granted before implementation of the black beret as the standard Army headgear (see para 3–5a(3)).

Personnel authorized to wear the maroon, tan, or green berets wear their distinctive organizational flash. All other soldiers wear the Army flash on the black beret, unless authorization for another flash was granted before the implementation of the black beret as the standard Army headgear (see para 3–5a(3)(c)).

Special Forces personnel will wear the approved flash of the unit to which they are assigned. Special Forces personnel who are assigned to an organization without an approved flash will wear the generic SF flash (the flash approved for personnel assigned to SF positions, but not assigned to SF units).

Maroon beret. All personnel assigned to airborne units whose primary missions are airborne operations wear the maroon beret. The airborne designation for a unit is found in the unit modification table of organization and equipment (MTOE). Other soldiers authorized to wear the maroon beret are indicated below. Personnel will wear the approved flash of the unit to which they are assigned.

(a) Active Army advisors to reserve airborne units on jump status.
(b) All personnel assigned to the airborne departments of the U.S. Army Infantry School and the U.S. Army Quartermaster School.
(c) All personnel assigned to long-range surveillance detachments designated as airborne.
(d) All personnel assigned to the airborne/airlift action office.
(e) Recruiters of the Special Operations Recruiting Company (SORC), U.S. Army Recruiting Command. Personnel will wear the USASOC flash.
(f) All personnel assigned to the airborne procurement team.
(g) All personnel assigned to 55th Signal Company Airborne Combat Camera Documentation Team.
(h) All personnel assigned to 982d Combat Signal Company airborne platoons.
(i) All personnel assigned to rigger detachments.

Personnel being transferred from one organization to another may continue to wear the beret and flash of the former unit until they report for duty at the new organization.


The Institute of Heraldry, U.S. Army, has determined the propriety, and granted approval of insignia and flashes. Only Airborne, rangers or special operations units on jump status are authorized beret flashes and background trimmings under the provisions of AR 670-1. Divisions, brigades, groups, regiments, battalions and separate companies/detachments are entitled to a flash within their own right. The approved and authorized flashes can be found http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Heraldry/ArmyBFBT/ArmyBFBT.aspx

Originally Posted By: Guard MC

yes, if you make the 5th jump and break a leg, you can still graduate--seen it done.


Award of the basic military parachutist badge is the strongest example of hundreds if not thousands of Army Airborne course graduates never being utilized to do a combat parachute assault jump or an operational mission jump. There is also an abundance of Army Airborne course graduates who never are assigned to an airborne unit, ranger unit or any other special purpose special operations in nature parachute capable unit during their military service.

Army airborne assault operations are rare events, the Army has conducted only six large-scale operations of 2500 or more jumpers in its history. Approximately eleven combat airborne operations have been conducted by battalion to brigade-sized (500-2500 jumpers) units and approximately eight small-scale operations of 100 to 500 jumpers.

Parachute insert capability is more frequently used by small tactical teams such as Pararescue, special operations tactical teams, or behind enemy-lines long range reconnaissance teams.

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#62682 - Sun Nov 11 2012 15:40 PM Re: Beret Question [Re: sjl777]
Guard MC Offline
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Registered: Sat Aug 09 2003
Posts: 1864
Loc: Louisville, Ky STS
Still a lot of 5 jump chumps wearing a Maroon Beret, entitled or not. Most people are not familiar enough with the Regs to know when they can or cannot wear it or when another person can or cannot. I've seen jump qualified Army personnel who were later stationed at non-Airborne units continue to wear their beret and nobody knows that they shouldn't be. When you have thousands of beret wearers out there, its kind of hard to know or care who is entitled to wear it. So the beret is essentially meaningless. But once the Army lowered the Airborne standards to allow ANYONE to make it, the beret and wings stopped meaning much anyway.
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#62683 - Sun Nov 11 2012 16:23 PM Re: Beret Question [Re: Guard MC]
Yukon Offline
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Registered: Wed Mar 14 2001
Posts: 2021
Loc: Anchorage AK, USA
Originally Posted By: Guard MC
But once the Army lowered the Airborne standards to allow ANYONE to make it, the beret and wings stopped meaning much anyway.
There is a date connected to the lowering of the physical fitness standards--- 14 December 1973.

Initially the Airborne School modified the physical standards for females at first. Later, Airborne School revised its standards, making them uniform (lowest common denominator) for females and males.

A persuasive position of mediocrity creeping into "airborne" course standards prior to 1973 can be built on badge collection gathered becoming square filled conformity influencing favorable officer promotion selection opportunity in the peacetime Army.

Also the production goal of the Airborne course is to train basic military parachutists. Once a qualified parachutist, training to become airborne infantry is a different mission, one which takes much longer and belongs to the airborne units themselves.



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#62686 - Mon Nov 12 2012 04:05 AM Re: Beret Question [Re: sjl777]
Guard MC Offline
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Registered: Sat Aug 09 2003
Posts: 1864
Loc: Louisville, Ky STS
Once you settle for the lowest common denominator, you've reduced Airborne to a means of infiltration. And that is what it is today, which is fine. The mystique Airborne status once carried and indeed, still carries within the Army and in public consciousness, is simply misplaced. Even as a means of teaching static line parachute operations, the Army Airborne School is wildly inefficient. Some day the USAF and US Navy are going to wake up and teach their own Airborne/HALO combined course rather than waste time at the Army School (much as they run their own SCUBA courses today). The US Navy, teaching highly motivated and fit SEALs and EOD Techs teaches Airborne and HALO Jump Master and the Air National Guard runs its own Rescue Jump Master Course while all PJs can also go through Rescue Jump Master as part of OJT.

But I've strayed from the original intent. My apologies...

You are correct, Airborne teaches people how to safely fall out of an aircraft while attached to a parachute. The question is why anyone would violate the uniform standards of their own service to associate themselves with the mediocrity represented by Airborne School.
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#62689 - Mon Nov 12 2012 13:07 PM Re: Beret Question [Re: sjl777]
Yukon Offline
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Registered: Wed Mar 14 2001
Posts: 2021
Loc: Anchorage AK, USA
Originally Posted By: Guard MC
The question is why anyone would violate the uniform standards of their own service to associate themselves with the mediocrity represented by Airborne School.
LOL-it’s called lack of self-esteem and other emotional fitness and weak character trait issues. Alternatively, it can simply be a matter of I’m-better-than-you ego where badge, beret and other heraldry adds appearance luster to a blood-on-the-risers being something ego mentality. It’s the same as the frequent PME retired SNCO quest speaker at Moody AF claiming to be a participant of the Son Tay raid until rescue established a presence on the base and the PJs brought in Wayne Fisk and others who were Son Tay raid participants to expose his butt during his PME quest speaker dog and pony show.

The basic beret justification persuasion unsuccessfully used recently by various Air Force career fields and Air Force members of Joint Units is:

The beret is a symbol of achievement and recognition in the United States military services. Many elite groups within all branches of military service have adopted the beret for this same reason. No matter what the color or insignia, the beret has been the trademark that identifies a particular group as being special and apart from the average military soldier, sailor, or airman.

The premise appeals emotionally to not necessarily true or accurate tradition and heraldry common to all of the military services. Only the US Army and US Air Force use a beret uniform to symbolize anything and it’s not necessarily symbolizing elite or special either. In fact some Air Force career fields beret justification had cause and effect justification completely unrelated to symbolizing elite or special or recognizing recurring consistent extraordinary mission success and achievement in the operational environment.

The Air Force media article “AIRMAN RANGER RETIRES AFTER 41YEARS” unmistakably reveals a I’m-better-than-you ego .
Quote:
Hays originally wanted to be a pararescueman and go to Vietnam and save lives but didn't have 20/20 vision-…

After Hays's four years with JSOC, he completed 91 jumps and 36 temporary duties. He was also afforded the opportunity to obtain foreign wings from Canada. For not getting the pararescueman position when he went to basic, this Colonel said he sure got his pick of wings to wear.
Why is comparison to Pararescue necessary other than to assert something by avoiding mention of any substantive mission participation in doing something. 91 training jumps and 36 temporary duties is where on a certainty continuum of doing some significant achievement or accomplishment connected to a mission event? It’s a false analogy. Most people were enlisting in the Air Force in 1971 to avoid participating in ground combat and PJ applicant volunteers were recruited out of the BMT flights after they completed the PAST screening. The initial class III and initial physiological training (Chamber to altitude and depth--tested to show ability withstand pressure of 50 PSI or 112 feet of sea water and breathing 100% oxygen for 30 minutes at 26.7 PSI or 60 feet of sea water) was accomplished during Indoc, so did he show up at PJ Indoc course or not?


The 2009-2010 AF EOD beret persuasive justification that was disapproved during 2011 included justification we want to be considered special and equal to PJs.

Quote:
CMSgt ROBERT C HODGES a member of the AF EOD Program Management—excerpts from an email he sent out back in 2010.
…..
In the past, EOD were recognized across the base or when we walked into a room because we wore BDUs before anyone else did. Our EOD Crab made us stand out because it was one of very few badges that Airmen wore. We didn't need a hat to make us stand out, but we had one anyway. We stood out and we liked it. That has all changed. (reference to organizational ball Cap).

In today's AF we blend in with our fellow Airmen. I am a proud member of our USAF and I love wearing my uniform. However, after talking with many of you I believe our EOD Techs still want to be recognized. If not, why do I keep getting requests for EOD to wear special uniforms or some type of baseball cap? We don't want to just wear them in combat; we want to wear them all of the time. We still have some units that wear black flight suits so everyone knows they are EOD. Why? Because they are not only functional, but the special uniforms are cool and make us look special and make us stand out; get us recognized. While wearing our uniform the USAF allows members with a special mission to be recognized with a beret.

As I mentioned, some EOD Airmen want a tan ball cap with a crab on it. I’ve put some feelers out for this to some senior enlisted leaders and officers. The feedback I have gotten is all negative, it will not get approved. There is no legacy or precedence for it. Our RED HORSE teams had both a legacy and precedence to follow. I was pointed toward a beret if I wanted the EOD CF to be recognized. The interesting thing about this is, even the Airmen who want the ball cap want to be recognized as something special. We need to understand the beret is how the USAF does this in uniform.

I was given this example by an EOD Airman who favors the beret. He explained to me that when we go to events on base or to special classes like PME everyone looks around at the Airmen as they walk in, mingle about or stand in formation. Everybody who walks in is an Airman. When an Airman walks in wearing a maroon beret everyone recognizes that a PJ walked in. The same goes for a red beret, everyone knows that a combat controller just walked in. They are looked at differently, looked at as being warriors. He mentioned that no one in the AF is doing what we do in this war and EOD should be recognized as being a unique warrior Airman. We aren't just part of the group; we are elite and should be recognized for it. I happen to agree with this TSgt.
….

The JCSE/JCU Air Force members justification differs but used similar "we are unique warrior Airman and should be recognized for it" justifications. The “special uniforms are cool and make us look special and make us stand out; get us recognized” was modified to beret uniform allows Air Force members assigned to joint unit to blend in with other USSOCOM parachutists and conformity gives Air Force members of being recognized as unique warriors equal to all other USSOCOM operators assigned to a joint unit. The request was for all Air Force members awarded a parachutist badge assigned to a joint unit duty position be authorized wear of the parachutist airborne maroon beret even if the Air Force member isn’t on active parachutist status and isn’t sustaining parachutist qualifications and proficiencies as it gives credibility in the special operations community.

The maroon beret the Air Force approved for pararescue wasn't as a parachutist airborne heraldry recognition or for purposes of establishing creditability or for conforming to Army dress and appearances when Air Force members are performing duties during a joint unit duty assignment.

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#62693 - Mon Nov 12 2012 13:33 PM Re: Beret Question [Re: sjl777]
Guard MC Offline
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Registered: Sat Aug 09 2003
Posts: 1864
Loc: Louisville, Ky STS
And in a strange coincidence, I have thrown away my original CCT beret. It just plane wore out over the years and had a hole the size of my finger tip in the back along the fold line.

Normally I am sentimental; I keep my old running shoes as work shoes until I get over it and throw them out, I give my old cars to friends rather then sell them or take them to the junk yard, etc. For some reason I had no trouble removing the crest and rank insignia and throwing the old beret in the trash, much like I would worn out uniform T-shirts or socks. Wonder why that doesn't bother me?

Oh, maybe my self esteem is linked to mission accomplishment and not to my head gear! Granted, my mission now isn't too exciting; I get the guys the funds, training, equipment, facilities and support they need to do the job, but I'm still pretty damn proud of that. Don't much care about what is on my head.
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#62694 - Mon Nov 12 2012 13:36 PM Re: Beret Question [Re: sjl777]
Guard MC Offline
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Registered: Sat Aug 09 2003
Posts: 1864
Loc: Louisville, Ky STS
Oh, I'm proud of what I did to earn my beret and to keep it. But the beret itself isn't why I wanted the job or why I keep doing it. I love to see guys wear it with pride and I do so myself. But I don't think in matters much if I am recognized or not and if the USAF uniform board took the beret away tomorrow, I'd still be at work doing the same stuff.
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