This was going around work today. Col. Hackworth might be a sensationalist, but this has been a problem in the AF since before my time.

Moral of the story: Join the Corps

Seriously, don't be disheartened when you see Super Duper Admin Colonel or UAV Liaison getting bronze stars for doing their freaking jobs. It's better to stay in your own world and not worry about the POGs.

RD

For more on UAV Liaison, google predator "bronze star" and check the cache (the URL code isn't working for google cached items)

or go here

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:IcM...en&ie=UTF-8

Truly sickening, a thorough lack of leadership.

I've been thinking about it and the biggest problem wouldn't be reform, it would be figuring out what to do with all the "combat admin" (and similar) troops that are already running around with freebie bronze stars and commendations. Even worse than the combat admin troops are the O4-O9s that start getting Master Sergeant Medals for doing their job with each promotion bringing a bigger end of tour award. Like PRC says, truly sickening.

RD

man guru, you know how to bring up the tough issues...i dig the ideological discussion about these topics, but can we solve this one...?...

a parallel issue...the air force has programmatically had terrible fitness programs...general jumper realized this, and is personally leading the charge to usher in a cultural change and get the air force back in shape...with leadership at the chief of staff and filtering down, this new fitness program has a chance...here at spang, units are working out together and i've never seen the gym so crowded...if we (institutionally) actually enforce this standard, the chief has a good chance of changing the air force fitness culture...hopefully we can even catch the army and marines and attach fitness/force readiness to promotions... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...

the awards and decorations issue is, in my opinion, also one of culture...i've heard colleagues say, "heck, what's the big deal, a bronze star is just an MSM awarded during conflict"...this seems to be the general sentiment and people feel the inflated awards are legitimate...the big deal is (for those of you who don't know) that the Meritorious Service Medal is the highest peacetime award you can receive...the award reads: THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AUTHORIZED BY EXECUTIVE ORDER...HAS AWARDED THE MERITORIOUS SERVICE MEDAL TO...folks in the marines and navy can serve 20 years and never earn one...my OTS class had a prior E6 that boasted two MSMs and an E5 with a defense MSM (awarded for joint service)...an award conferred by the authority of the President should be earned by those only with a relative commensurate level of responsibility...i'm sorry, but an E5 or E6 affecting leadership at the junior enlisted level do not deserve this honor...nor do senior enlisted or officers who are "9 to 5ers"...

so guru, i would say the chiefs of staff of each service (with the marines as the example) have to promote a new culture with a "bit" more integrity...for now, i look at things like this:

WARRIORS who perform heroically/meritoriously do so irrespective of the recognition...if colonel snuffy and chief elvis feel they NEED an award (or even worse, SUBMIT THEMSELVES) to sleep at night, screw 'em...despite their salad, the individual piece of poop wearing it will be self-critiquing...

god and America bless the true WARRIORS...

This is definitely a hot topic. The AF just announced another ribbon for people who have deployed after 1 Oct 99 as part of the AEF. You get a cluster for each 45 days. Imagine how many of these the Rescue and SOF guys alone will earn.

As for the Bronze Star side of things, I always thought of it as an MSM for wartime ops. If it is awarded for heroism, the citation will say so and it will have the "V" device for valor. I recall people getting upset for folks not in theater getting them (such as NSA, NRO, etc.). I can see both sides of the arguement, but warfare has changed significantly in the last 50 years. People in far away (thus safe) locations are key players in the success or failure of an operation. I'm not sure the answer is a Bronze Star for them... just saying as the way we do business changes, so should the way we recognize our people.

As much as I hate to admit he has a point (not a Hack fan), it is still going on. The latest I heard was 35 DFCs issued to C17 crews for their work over AFG. I personally find that difficult to buy since dropping MREs from 30k feet over a nation with no air defences and no air force presents no more risk than flying across the Atlantic. I thought DFCs were for exceptional heroics at the controls of an aircraft during time of war.

As 03djh stated... we (USAF) have other cultural issues. The award of medals for doing your job is done bcz if you PCS and don't receive a medal it is translated to mean you were a dirtbag. We also say it's to take care of our troops since they earn promotion points with most awards. The medal nominations process has become inflated just like our Enlisted Performance Report system. I can count on one hand the number of EPRs I have seen that accurately reflect a person's duty performance. Everyone gives out "firewall 5's" bcz if they don't they fear it'll hurt the troop's career.

djh - I don't know if the problem will be solved, but I remain optimistic (that and I detest people who complain about problems without offering suggestions or trying to fix them).

On a personal note, the Predator liaison bit really got to me. I was an imagery exploitation/mission supervisor for the Predator during Allied Force. Back then we weren't strapping Hellfire's on there, but it is wrong to throw out awards (like the Bronze Star) where there is no inherent danger or even serious hardship placed on the awardee.

And no, I wasn't there that day when the Capt. was doing her job, so I don't know if they blindfolded her and made her hop around on a wet floor while she was on the phone with the CAOC/JOC before relaying the go ahead to the pilot.

RD

I like the put up or shut up attitude guru.
I have a problem with the inflated EPR system also. Mainly because I lost SSgt over it. My boss (Shop chief) was old school and he believed that no young first term airman EVER deserved above a 4 EPR because or lack of experience. I was told by the new shop chief I would have beaten everyone in the squadron out of BTZ if I hadn't gotten the 4 EPR, which she told me, was underrated. Ahh, I don't have a big problem with it.
My question is How does one change the system if you are only in the lower enlisted ranks? Does anyone think the inflated EPR system will ever change? I really don't think it will. With the knowledge I have of the system, how would I rate my airman honestly? Realistically, you hurt them if they get below a 5 EPR. So does this mean that if they are only a decent airman you have to give them a 5? How do you supervisors handle this with your own troops and do YOU do anything to correct the system?

By the way, the shop chief/super I'm talking about soon after lost the shop lead position and was given a "Hide a TSgt" position because he did the same to 5 other airmen. Such is life.

On the other side of the coin (sort of)...on a jump mission I, and 5 others had out of Okinawa (jumped into the middle of the Pacific and spent over 2 days on a Chinese fishing vessel treating 6 sailors that were burned (minor to massive 3rd degree) in a boiler explosion), we were awarded Commendation Medals...because we WERE just doing our jobs! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Let me tell you...hot-bunking with (and having to fend off) homosexual chinese crew members and eating "low-quat" for two days is worth at least an Air Medal... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

ED?

Jesus MSgt. I guess we now know where you learned about meat-gazing.

Your post brings up the idealogical "problem" of the award system. Just by being a PJ, your job is inherently more dangerous than a Predator Liaison and while I personally have no problem with never rewarding the admin POG who always files my travel voucher in a timely manner, organizationally it doesn't really work except in the Corps where ostensibly the pride of being a Marine is enough to fulfill the self-worth and accomplishment sections of our feeble minds.

On a positive note, at the rate we're going, we'll all have so many medals upon retirement the general populace will confuse us for Middle Eastern dictators.

RD

TE, are you saying the loquat, fried squid and grass jelly drink were not reward enough? Geez, next you will be saying you should have got TDY pay for the 2 day cruise vacation in the tropics.

Seriously, the medal system is so broke, I think we need to completely start over. OIF appears to be no exception. Thankfully, awards are not why we do what we do.
ED

Guru,

You keep saying the Marines don't want any medals. Are these the same Marines who were quoted in AF Times about needing multiple campaign medals for their service in the GWOT?

Also were you sharp enough to note that hackworthless compared all the medals awarded to USAF personnel to Bronze Stars awarded to the Marines, he (Hackworthless) didn't include the Navy Crosses, DFC's, Silver Stars, Air Medals, Navy Comms, Navy Achievements, etc. Think the Marine total might be a little higher if those awards are included?

FWIW: The most awarded medal (last numbers I saw) is the Air Force Achievement Medal, look up the history of the AFAM, you'll see that this is one of the scenarios envisioned when the medal was created.

Do a little more research, hackworthless claims imaginary flack over Iraq. What shot down the A-10 over Baghdad? A bad dream, remember the female A-10 pilot, guess she faked the damage to earn a bogus award too.

All you guys whining about the awards system, show some guts. Tell your supervisor that you don't deserve an EOT award. Then post here.

Ouch! Looks like someone should cut back on the hateorade. A couple of things though.

Never once did I say that Marines don't want medals. I was talking about a difference in culture between the Corps and the other services. It's been my experience that if you don't throw out awards with every tour in the AF, airmen get bitter. That bitterness is not as evident (to me at least) among Marines about not receiving an EOT. I didn't mean to imply that Marines desire awards any less than anyone else. Awards just aren't expected like they are here.

I'm not familiar with the AF Times article you mention, but I'd be wary of the source. The AF Times has no more a monopoly on the truth than any other publication. Like many in the media the easiest way to sell papers is by generating controversy.

And yes, I'm sure the Marines handed out quite a few NAMs and COMs, but I'd bet it's nowhere near the number per capita as the AF or Army. Also, having spent a tour with a Marine unit, I know firsthand how common it is to see Sgts & SSgts with no achievement medals.

Yes, Hackworth is a sensationalist and like most writers will present the info in whatever way suits his argument best. I don't really see what calling him names will do, but who am I to judge another person's hobbies.

And yes, I will tell my supervisor that I don't deserve an EOT (even though I never said a word regarding achievement medals, comms or EOT awards, I guess I'd be a hypocrite). I don't really see what good it will do since he's not the one who makes that decision, but it might confuse the LT and that alone is worth it.


RD

wow...like i said, i dig ideological discussion...embedded in that discussion is constructive criticism...it is one way we learn and begin to respect others' opinions...i like to receive it and offer if i feel it is appropriate...so, if i posit a contrary or differing opinion, it is not to be combative, but to present another view...in no particular order...

1. if you are not thinking PURPLE, start now...SN, this is not a matter of the marines vs the air force...many leaders and combatants (me among them) believe the awards and dec system is broke...you may make some valid points, but when Bronze Stars are being awarded to people who never left CONUS and an E6 receives an MSM for a three year tour at an airman leadership school we have problems...

2. seraphim, the EPR system is another institutional problem and i don't envy you being in a supervisory role these days...man brother, let your conscious be your guide...my philosophy distilled down: you have three basic types of people...first, those with an intrinsic work ethic that will give you 100%, 100% of the time...second, the type that will try to get out of everything and get something-for-nothing 100% of the time...and third, you've got the guy on the fence that could jump down on either side...as a leader, you've got to reward and empower the first guy, do whatever you can to process the second guy out of the service, and LEAD the third...tough duty brother, but you are up for the task...!...

3. we can all learn a small lesson from bill o'reilly...when a guest is a senator, he addresses them as 'senator,' generals he addresses as 'general,' and so on...regardless of what he personally thinks about someone, he respects their position...david hackworth was a full colonel in the US army...SN, calling him 'hackworthless' makes your points seem that much less valid and is publicly disrespectful to a senior officer...better would be: "colonel hackworth (whose opinions i find worthless)..."...

4. the medals for "doing your job" is also tough...EOD, PJ, cop, firefighter (my prior field) are all inherently dangerous...exceptional acts, whether operational or support, deserve recognition...but, from my experience, PJs and firefighters would still be PJs and firefighters even if the awards and dec system didn't exist...

thanks again for the discussions y'all...who knows, maybe some of these forums are monitored by leadership and the messages are being heard at some level...i'm off to do this hour's cals (in chem gear, whoo hoo)...maybe with a long condition red i can finish up 'none braver'...have a good 'un...djh

Ugh...I forgot about the grass jelly...I need to get a little "puking man" icon for that...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Originally posted by TE:
Let me tell you...hot-bunking with (and having to fend off) homosexual chinese crew members... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haha! How come I never heard that story? How many of them did you throw overboard? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Just imagine the DOTO Chrome if that HAD gotten out...I may have been the first "lifetime Chromus Nominee"... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

As far as the overboard question...forever sealed as TOP SECRET/SAR...code word access only...suffice to say, we were credited with 6 saves...nobody cares about the "overboards"... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Awards and decs? Those are the things that go on the blue outfit under half an inch of dust on the shelf in my closet right?
Seriously guys, I have a feeling that most of us work in jobs or are trying to get in to jobs where it is a rare event you see them. You know when I wore blues last? June 30, 1996. No kidding. Even when I accept awards it is in BDU's because that is how I earn them. Don't get me wrong they are kind of nice to get. You get to stand in nice straight lines, do that whole attention thing and see what your commander and first shirt look like.
If I had to attend something formal tomorrow I would have to print out my ribbon rack off of virtualMPF (That thing is cool isn't it?) and paste it to my shirt.
For those of you on the outside of the secure operations arena I wish I could tell you to take comfort in the fact that your family and friends know what you do but, if your doing your job right, they don't. You have to be internally strong and know your giving your best effort for mission completion all the time. You will go places and do things that only the men with you will know about. You have got to learn to be all right with that. Clumsiness in opsec for the sake of you getting a pat on the back will be quickly and effeiciently punished.
Do these jobs because of the way they make you feel about yourself not the way others feel about you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by TE:
Just imagine the DOTO Chrome if that HAD gotten out...I may have been the first "lifetime Chromus Nominee"...

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haha! Yea, but they would only have made fun of you in large groups. The bubbas in the non-ResQ sections were afraid of you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

dcangviper hit it on the head. To quote Guru "I collect scars, memories and tattoo's". For me it's not about the fruit salad, it never has been. I would pay them to let me jump out of planes and get in the dirt, don't let any one know that though.

To hit on a previous sidenote, Tomahawk, if I'm not mistaken, DFC's are not always awarded to pilots or in wartime. The first one was awarded to Charles Lindburgh for flying solo across the Atlantic. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />